Why crucifixion?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:35 am


And Jacob, when he went into Mesopotamia, saw Him in a dream, standing upon the ladder,128 that is, the tree, which was set up from earth to heaven; 129 for thereby they that believe on Him go up to the heavens. For His sufferings are our ascension on high. And all such visions point to the Son of God, speaking with men and being in their midst. For it was not the Father of all, who is not seen by the world, the Maker of all who said: Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me, or what is the place of my rest?130 and who comprehendeth the earth with his hand, and with his span the heaven 131----it was not He that came and stood in a very small space and spake with Abraham; but the Word of God, who was ever with mankind, and made known |111 beforehand what should come to pass in the future, and taught men the things of God.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/irenaeus_02_proof.htm
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:45 am

So prof Culianu:
The angels of the peoples are responsible for the earthly disorders as wars and the like (in Isaiah 24:21-22).
"When the peoples of the earth make war, their heavenly princes make war too"

. A further development of this belief is that the national angels assist their peoples in fight. The angel of Egypt, when his people were sunk into the Red Sea, sought safety in flight.
...
According to R. Meir (Pesikta 151a) the angels getting up and down the ladder in Jacob's vision are the national angels. Jacob saw the angels of Babylon, of the Medes, Greeks and of Edom (Rome) getting down the ladder. That meant that their rulership over the world has come to an end.

https://books.google.it/books?id=Eel5Dw ... ob&f=false
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

lsayre
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by lsayre » Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:18 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:25 am
  • the prophets persecuted in the past were considered as crucified
Thoughts ?
The quoted text (which appears to be a foretelling of the future, but leaving that aside) says " Some of them you will kill and crucify". Yet you appear to imply a necessity that all of them were (and are to be) treated as such.

If only "some" profits are foretold to receive such treatment, then you can't use this as an argument by which to presume that Jesus "must" be crucified.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:38 pm

I think that Ben has to modify again his first post of this thread, by adding this new reason for the crucifixion:

Hanging on a tree in this context appears to have arisen from a very early midrash on the Akedah — the story of Isaac carrying the wood and then being placed on the wood for his sacrifice (wood = tree). Compare Jesus carrying the cross before being placed on it. It originated as another way of identifying Jesus with the Isaac figure.

https://vridar.org/2020/06/09/ascension ... ent-105070
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:00 am


And Avraham took the wood of the burnt-offering — like one who carries his own STAKE [to be impaled] on his shoulder.

https://www.sefaria.org/Bereishit_Rabbah.56.3?lang=bi

Ben, I am expecting still that you update the first post of this thread.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:09 pm

Ben is (irrationally?) not updating the first post of this thread by adding the new ideas, but in whiletime I find a new evidence supporting my view (see post above). It is interesting view about the midrash in action between the OT story of the Brothers of Jacob who are reluctant to kill him, and the Talmudic story about the trees who are reluctant to be chosen for the hanging of Haman, contra factum that in both cases the victim will die. The only difference is that Haman is evil, while Jacob is righteous. Hence, the connection ‘crucifixion on tree’/expiatory victim was already in the air.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Didymus914
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Didymus914 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:37 pm

This would be the real, historical crucifixion of a real, historical person, correct?
[/quote]

Yes, if you accept John's representation of Jesus as an historical figure.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by neilgodfrey » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:18 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:06 am
For the purposes of this thread, assume that there is/was no historical Jesus who was crucified and then thought to be the Messiah or the Son of God or whatnot. The notion, then, that the Messiah or the Son of God had to be crucified must have come from some other source than historical misfortune. What might that other source have been? What I am looking for is a list of options, like so:
One option not listed was set out by Max Wilcox in 1977 in “‘Upon the Tree’: Deut 21:22-23 in the New Testament” JBL: 96 (1): 85–99. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3265329

In sum: the concept that a saviour had to be crucified originated with the Akedah, the story of Isaac's "sacrifice" in Genesis 22. Through midrashic readings the "wood" that Isaac carried and on which he was placed found a match with the "wood" on which one cursed was hanged in Deuteronomy 21:22-23. The sacrifice of Isaac came to be re-imagined as a type for a saving death by crucifixion.

I attempted to set out the main points in =https://vridar.org/2020/06/12/how-paul ... Scriptures
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