Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"

Post by GakuseiDon »

Technically, "certain Christians and (all) Jews", but yes, the idea that a perfect God or gods couldn't create perfect men from the start would apply to the pagan gods as well. That is in fact Origen's response to Celsus's charge.

The argument which Celsus employs against us and the Jews will be turned against himself thus: My good sir, does the God who is over all things know what takes place among men, or does He not know? Now if you admit the existence of a God and of providence, as your treatise indicates, He must of necessity know. And if He does know, why does He not make (men) better? Is it obligatory, then, on us to defend God's procedure in not making men better, although He knows their state, but not equally binding on you, who do not distinctly show by your treatise that you are an Epicurean, but pretend to recognise a providence, to explain why God, although knowing all that takes place among men, does not make them better, nor by divine power liberate all men from evil? We are not ashamed, however, to say that God is constantly sending (instructors) in order to make men better; for there are to be found among men reasons given by God which exhort them to enter on a better life. But there are many diversities among those who serve God, and they are few in number who are perfect and pure ambassadors of the truth, and who produce a complete reformation, as did Moses and the prophets. But above all these, great was the reformation effected by Jesus, who desired to heal not only those who lived in one corner of the world, but as far as in Him lay, men in every country, for He came as the Saviour of all men.

It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:20 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:12 pmThat's the 'most shameless assertion': the Christian idea of a descending Son of God to make men righteous implies a non-perfect God.
Christian and Pagan. He is talking in absolute general terms, here.
GDon is exactly right here. It is about the descent of gods in order to change human behavior.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:40 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:20 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:12 pmThat's the 'most shameless assertion': the Christian idea of a descending Son of God to make men righteous implies a non-perfect God.
Christian and Pagan. He is talking in absolute general terms, here.
GDon is exactly right here. It is about the descent of gods in order to change human behavior.
Celsus is talking in general about any god, not only Christian. It is not a Christian particularity the fact that Jesus descends "in order to change human behavior". The death of Attis, of Osiris, etc, has benefits on their adorers. Celsus denies their descent on earth, too.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:16 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:40 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:20 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:12 pmThat's the 'most shameless assertion': the Christian idea of a descending Son of God to make men righteous implies a non-perfect God.
Christian and Pagan. He is talking in absolute general terms, here.
GDon is exactly right here. It is about the descent of gods in order to change human behavior.
Celsus is talking in general about any god, not only Christian. It is not a Christian particularity the fact that Jesus descends "in order to change human behavior". The death of Attis, of Osiris, etc, has benefits on their adorers. Celsus denies their descent on earth, too.
He may well think similar things about Attis and Osiris; I do not know; all I know is that one cannot ignore the qualification which GDon has pointed out. It is essential to the argument.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:47 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:16 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:40 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:20 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:12 pmThat's the 'most shameless assertion': the Christian idea of a descending Son of God to make men righteous implies a non-perfect God.
Christian and Pagan. He is talking in absolute general terms, here.
GDon is exactly right here. It is about the descent of gods in order to change human behavior.
Celsus is talking in general about any god, not only Christian. It is not a Christian particularity the fact that Jesus descends "in order to change human behavior". The death of Attis, of Osiris, etc, has benefits on their adorers. Celsus denies their descent on earth, too.
He may well think similar things about Attis and Osiris; I do not know; all I know is that one cannot ignore the qualification which GDon has pointed out. It is essential to the argument.
GDon has qualified/specified. The problem is that Celsus generalizes, talking abstractly about any god.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:50 pmGDon has qualified/specified. The problem is that Celsus generalizes, talking abstractly about any god.
How? What are you talking about?
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:51 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:50 pmGDon has qualified/specified. The problem is that Celsus generalizes, talking abstractly about any god.
How? What are you talking about?
GDon's efforts are meant to prove that Celsus is addressing only the Christian god. But the claim I am talking about refers to any god, Pagan and Christian.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"

Post by Giuseppe »

The his argument is:

1) No god can descend.

2) Jesus is a god.

3) Ergo Jesus can't descend.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:55 pm The his argument is:

1) No god can descend.

2) Jesus is a god.

3) Ergo Jesus can't descend.
Where is this argument?
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Giuseppe
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:57 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:55 pm The his argument is:

1) No god can descend.

2) Jesus is a god.

3) Ergo Jesus can't descend.
Where is this argument?
what question?? One who says

no God or son of God has come down or will come down

Can only do that argument.

The argument is confuted by admitting that Jesus is not a god. Or he is a god but he never existed on earth.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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