Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

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Giuseppe
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Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:10 am


For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

(7:14)

Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

(7:3)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:34 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:10 am

For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

(7:14)

Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

(7:3)
To the contrary, the entire argument of the epistle depends upon both of these points. Melchizedek has to lack a recorded genealogy (or at least it helps our author's case that he lacks a recorded genealogy) so as to inaugurate a priesthood which does not rely upon genealogical descent, precisely in order that the Judahite Christ might be a priest of some kind (= a priest after the order of Melchizedek).
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:19 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:34 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:10 am

For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

(7:14)

Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

(7:3)
To the contrary, the entire argument of the epistle depends upon both of these points. Melchizedek has to lack a recorded genealogy (or at least it helps our author's case that he lacks a recorded genealogy) so as to inaugurate a priesthood which does not rely upon genealogical descent, precisely in order that the Judahite Christ might be a priest of some kind (= a priest after the order of Melchizedek).
this is a non-sequitur, a failed harmonization. One can be a priest of some kind (= a priest after the order of Melchizedek), only if he is as Melchizedek, without genealogy, hence without link with human tribes.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:47 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:19 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:34 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:10 am

For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

(7:14)

Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

(7:3)
To the contrary, the entire argument of the epistle depends upon both of these points. Melchizedek has to lack a recorded genealogy (or at least it helps our author's case that he lacks a recorded genealogy) so as to inaugurate a priesthood which does not rely upon genealogical descent, precisely in order that the Judahite Christ might be a priest of some kind (= a priest after the order of Melchizedek).
this is a non-sequitur, a failed harmonization. One can be a priest of some kind (= a priest after the order of Melchizedek), only if he is as Melchizedek, without genealogy, hence without link with human tribes.
That is not what Hebrews says, nor how it argues. You are misreading the epistle.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:57 pm

The onus probandi is on you to prove that Jesus is not as Melkizedek, without genealogy.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:05 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:57 pm
The onus probandi is on you to prove that Jesus is not as Melkizedek, without genealogy.
That is not true at all. The epistle makes a very straightforward argument to the effect that Jesus belongs to "the order of Melchizedek" (τὴν τάξιν Μελχισέδεκ), a status which was already apparently applied to kings (not of priestly descent) in Psalm 110 (OG 109). It is all there; you just have to read it and understand it.
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:58 am

If Jesus had a Birth, then Melkizedek would be greater than him, for the author of Hebrews, since he is priest forever, "without beginning of days or end of life", while Jesus only from the time of the his birth.

This, frankly, is impossible.

Not only this. The verse 7:14 goes directly against 7:15-16:

And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

Melchizedek has to lack a recorded genealogy not because the Judahite Christ will become priest forever, but in virtue of the his (of Mekizedek and of Jesus) "indestructible life". In other terms, Jesus becomes a new Melkizedek in virtue of the his feature shared with Melkizedek (the possession of an "indestructible life"), not in virtue of the his being not from Levi but from Judah.



But if the verse 7:14 is impossible as genuine verse, then why did the interpolator add a provenance from Judah for Jesus? Afterall, there was no doubt that the author of Hebrews was a Jew writing for Jews. There was no doubt that for him, Jesus was a Jewish thing, and not an alien as the Jesus of Marcion.

There is only a possible answer. The interpolator wanted christianize the epistle. By referring the Hebrews's Jesus to the his Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:26 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:58 am
If Jesus had a Birth, then Melkizedek would be greater than him, for the author of Hebrews, since he is priest forever, "without beginning of days or end of life", while Jesus only from the time of the his birth.

This, frankly, is impossible.
Lots of Christians thought and still think both that Jesus was born and that he had no beginning of days. It is impossible; and yet millions believe it.
Not only this. The verse 7:14 goes directly against 7:15-16:

And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

Melchizedek has to lack a recorded genealogy not because the Judahite Christ will become priest forever, but in virtue of the his (of Mekizedek and of Jesus) "indestructible life". In other terms, Jesus becomes a new Melkizedek in virtue of the his feature shared with Melkizedek (the possession of an "indestructible life"), not in virtue of the his being not from Levi but from Judah.
This verse says exactly what I was saying: the order of Melchizedek is not based upon ancestry. So your last clause is correct: it it not because Melchizedek and Jesus are not from Levi but from Judah; rather, it is regardless of tribe.

But the author does not say that Jesus became like Melchizedek. In 7.3 he says that Melchizedek became like the Son of God, the other way around from how you put it.

The bit about Melchizedek and Jesus sharing an "indestructible life" is a direct interpretation of the Psalm: "you are a priest forever."
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:36 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:26 am
Lots of Christians thought and still think both that Jesus was born and that he had no beginning of days. It is impossible; and yet millions believe it.
This is an Argument from Snowball: the Christians of today have to accept the entire snowball, not the Christians of yesterday.

This verse says exactly what I was saying: the order of Melchizedek is not based upon ancestry. So your last clause is correct: it it not because Melchizedek and Jesus are not from Levi but from Judah; rather, t is regardless of tribe.
No, my last clause is that Jesus is the new Melkizedek not because he is from Judah as opposed to Levi, but because he is without birth just as Melkizedek, sharing with him a life forever.
But the author does not say that Jesus became like Melchizedek. In 7.3 he says that Melchizedek became like the Son of God, the other way around from how you put it.
What is the difference, since both are eternal beings?

The bit about Melchizedek and Jesus sharing an "indestructible life" is a direct interpretation of the Psalm: "you are a priest forever."
I don't think that Melkizedek is a midrashic figure. He was an archangel adored in Qumran, for example.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:43 am

The interpolator wants us believe that Jesus became the new Melkizedek in virtue of the his not-provenance from Levi (but from Judah), just as Melkizedek didn't come from Levi.

But the original author wants us believe that Jesus became the new Melkizedek in virtue of the eternity shared by both.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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