Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

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Giuseppe
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:43 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:26 am
I do not know what this means. The "order of Melchizedek," according to our author, has nothing to do with ancestry. One's physical heritage is off the table.
you are the same person who is saying that the order of Melchizedek has something to do with ancestry.

Now, the same original author of Hebrews is saying what is "even more clear":

And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

(7:15-16)

if you think that a priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest in virtue of the his provenance from Judah, then you are going directly against 7:15-16. Since you, by mentioning Judah (with Moses, etc), are introducing a requisite to become a priest still and again in function of an earthly provenance. The exact thing denied by 7:15-16.

there is a function f such that f(Levi)= negative answer.

the original author and Giuseppe say: the function f is the problem.

Ben and the interpolator say: f(Levi) is the problem, f(Judah) is the positive answer.


Why, according to you, couldn't Jesus come from Levi? If he was from Levi, the author could avoid the apology about the introduction of a high priest coming from Judah against Moses. If he is doing so, the reason is not that a historical Jesus came directly from Judah so he couldn't deceive the his readers by saying that Jesus came from Levi. The reason is that the interpolator introduced Judah, since Judah was used by him against Levi, when really the original author was against Levi just as he was against any possible earthly tribe as provenance for the new Melkizedek.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:01 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:43 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:26 am
I do not know what this means. The "order of Melchizedek," according to our author, has nothing to do with ancestry. One's physical heritage is off the table.
you are the same person who is saying that the order of Melchizedek has something to do with ancestry.
That is exactly the opposite of what I am saying. Wow.
Why, according to you, couldn't Jesus come from Levi?
Because to a lot of people, including the author of this epistle, the Christ/Messiah had to come from Judah; therefore, Jesus Christ was from Judah. If, however, Christ is from Judah, then he cannot be a priest, because only Aaronide Levites are allowed to be priests. The "order of Melchizedek" is the loophole: a priesthood which does not depend upon ancestry.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:22 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:01 am
That is exactly the opposite of what I am saying. Wow.
Why, according to you, couldn't Jesus come from Levi?
Because to a lot of people, including the author of this epistle, the Christ/Messiah had to come from Judah; therefore, Jesus Christ was from Judah. If, however, Christ is from Judah, then he cannot be a priest, because only Aaronide Levites are allowed to be priests. The "order of Melchizedek" is the loophole: a priesthood which does not depend upon ancestry.
so "a priesthood which does not depend upon ancestry" is really - according to you - depending upon ancestry, via Judah.

You will continue to deny that this is not what you are saying, since you will say that what you are saying is that the priesthood does depend upon God etc as opposed upon ancestry. But de facto what you are implicitly admitting, by the your (and interpolator's) need of a Christ coming from Judah as davidic Christ, is that the priesthood is depending again upon ancestry. Only: an ancestry based on Judah as opposed to Levi.

But the problem* here is the ancestry. Not a particular ancestry (one aaronide).

Melkizedek is the living denial of ancestry for priesthood. Of any ancestry. Even of a davidic ancestry. Pace your davidic messiah from Judah.

* = the hated thing.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:08 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:22 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:01 am
That is exactly the opposite of what I am saying. Wow.
Why, according to you, couldn't Jesus come from Levi?
Because to a lot of people, including the author of this epistle, the Christ/Messiah had to come from Judah; therefore, Jesus Christ was from Judah. If, however, Christ is from Judah, then he cannot be a priest, because only Aaronide Levites are allowed to be priests. The "order of Melchizedek" is the loophole: a priesthood which does not depend upon ancestry.
so "a priesthood which does not depend upon ancestry" is really - according to you - depending upon ancestry, via Judah.
No. Not remotely. Why you not grasp the simplest concepts, Giuseppe? Why do you make me waste my time explaining such trifles?
You will continue to deny that this is not what you are saying, since you will say that what you are saying is that the priesthood does depend upon God etc as opposed upon ancestry. But de facto what you are implicitly admitting, by the your (and interpolator's) need of a Christ coming from Judah as davidic Christ, is that the priesthood is depending again upon ancestry. Only: an ancestry based on Judah as opposed to Levi.
This is your last chance to get this without twisting my words around or putting words into my mouth.

The order of Melchizedek, in our author's eyes, has nothing to do with ancestry. A priest of this order could be of Judah; he could be of Benjamin; he could be of Gad; he could be of Levi; ancestry does not matter.

The usual order of priests (as per the Torah), however, has everything to do with ancestry. A priest officiating in the temple in Jerusalem must be of Aaron's line.

Problem (for our author): The Christ is of Judah's line, but the Christ really ought to be a priest anyway, in order that his (self) sacrifice be perfectly valid.

Solution (for our author): The Christ can be of the order of Melchizedek, in which one's ancestral line does not in any way matter.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:49 am

FWIW divrah - the original Hebrew behind 'the order of' simply has the same meaning as 'because of.' Jesus was a high priest because of Melchizedek. Melchizedek caused or was the reason for Jesus's highpriesthood.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:49 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:08 am
The order of Melchizedek, in our author's eyes, has nothing to do with ancestry. A priest of this order could be of Judah; he could be of Benjamin; he could be of Gad; he could be of Levi; ancestry does not matter.
No, the priest of this order is celestial. He couldn't be of Judah. He couldn't be of Benjamin. He couldn't be of Gad. He couldn't be of Levi. Any earthly ancestry is denied at all. He never lived on this earth.

Hebrews 8:4:
If he had been on earth he would not have been a priest

Problem (for our author): The Christ is of Judah's line
nowhere in Hebrews the Christ is said to be davidic. David is mentioned without no reference to him being an ancestor of Christ. And this is strange.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:51 am

But Giuseppe you have to take documents - which are now bound together in one canon - as deriving their origins from separate traditions. Whomever wrote Hebrews he thinks Melchizedek 'caused' Jesus to be a high priest. Jesus was a high priest 'because of' Melchizedek, by virtue of Melchizedek.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:36 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:49 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:08 am
The order of Melchizedek, in our author's eyes, has nothing to do with ancestry. A priest of this order could be of Judah; he could be of Benjamin; he could be of Gad; he could be of Levi; ancestry does not matter.
No, the priest of this order is celestial. He couldn't be of Judah. He couldn't be of Benjamin. He couldn't be of Gad. He couldn't be of Levi. Any earthly ancestry is denied at all. He never lived on this earth.

Hebrews 8:4:
If he had been on earth he would not have been a priest

You are misinterpreting Hebrews 8.4. Melchizedek was on earth when Abraham paid him tribute.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:44 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:36 am
You are misinterpreting Hebrews 8.4. Melchizedek was on earth when Abraham paid him tribute.
If it is for that reason, then also Jesus appeared more times in the history to meet the biblical personage x. Just as he appeared before Paul. In hallucination.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Hebrews 7:14 versus Hebrews 7:3: one of them is an interpolation

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:49 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:44 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:36 am
You are misinterpreting Hebrews 8.4. Melchizedek was on earth when Abraham paid him tribute.
If it is for that reason, then also Jesus appeared more times in the history to meet the biblical personage x.
What I am saying is that the epistle lays out no rule that a priest of the order of Melchizedek can never have been on earth. If that were the rule, then Melchizedek himself is disqualified.

What matters to our author is that no priest of this order is serving as priest on earth during the tenure of the Aaronides. Melchizedek was on earth, but he came before Aaron, so that is fine. Jesus was on earth, too, but he was not a priest while on earth; according to Hebrews, he became a priest only after he died. So the Aaronides remain the priesthood of record on earth, in the sanctuary at Jerusalem, but Jesus becomes the priest of record in heaven, in the true sanctuary.
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