Judaizers allied with worshippers of Attis in Galatia against Paul

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
Posts: 6518
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Judaizers allied with worshippers of Attis in Galatia against Paul

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:02 am

The Galatians were ancient adorers of the god Attis. Hence they confused the circumcision preached by Judaizers with the castration of the priests of Attis, and in virtue of this confusion, they give to the circumcision a salvific value.

This explains why the Judaizers were able to move the Galatians against Paul.

This is the reason why Paul is full of anger:

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

(Galatians 5:2-4)

In addition, the Galatians were too much naive and primitive to accept fully the Pauline belief about a Jesus crucified in outer space by planetary Archons. For them, that belief was too much abstract. Despite of the Paul's effort to make it concrete in their eyes by use of visual images:

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.

(Galatians 3:1)


The Galatians were inclined to accept a death of Jesus more similar to the death of Attis. The image of the phrigian god was fixed on a tree and the his adorers wore mourning before it. The eyes required their part, not only their mysticism.

After a promising beginning "according to spirit", they ended "according to flesh":

I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

The consequence was that Paul was compelled to represent the crucifixion not more as a celestial cosmic crucifixion in outer space (very liked in Corinth! Only read 1 Corinthians 2:6-8) but as an earthly gibbet, and Jesus as a man mutilated on the wood, just like Attis. Only in this way he could be understood and loved by the "fool" Galatians.

This is a great example of adaptability by Paul.

But the result was decisive: the fact that Paul was moved to concede a more earthly view of the crucifixion in Galatia created a strong precedent for the late progressive euhemerizzation of Jesus.

The Judaizers realized that Paul had made this grave concession to the Judaizing Galatians and took advantage of it.

In 1 Peter, Jesus is also crucified on a wood.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 6518
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Judaizers allied with worshippers of Attis in Galatia against Paul

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:16 am

The Judaizers connected their ideology of the expiatory blood shed on large scale with the idea of a Jesus crucified on a wood.

They couldn't do so having only a Jesus crucified in outer space. The crucifixion didn't require a vaste mass of blood shed, pace any apologies of the contrary. Even more so a celestial crucifixion in outer space.

This is the reason they introduced great emphasis on the nails to the feet and hands, to have so a lot of blood shed. This is the reason they appealed to Psalm 22:17.

It is not a coincidence that the nails appear firstly in the Judaizing Gospel of Peter and in Justin.


The bleeding crucifixion comes after the crucifixion in outer space.
The replacement of the crucifixion in outer space with a bleeding crucifixion was supported by the very primitive people as the Galatians. While the more civilized people (as the Corinthians) accepted willingly the crucifixion in outer space.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 6518
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Judaizers allied with worshippers of Attis in Galatia against Paul

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:01 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:16 am
This is the reason they introduced great emphasis on the nails to the feet and hands, to have so a lot of blood shed. This is the reason they appealed to Psalm 22:17.
I would add this interesting comment by our Joe Wallack:
JoeWallack wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:02 am
In GMark Jesus' suffering is only physical and not mental/spiritual as the strong emotions Jesus has in the Teaching & Healing Ministry are exorcised (and transferred to Jesus' opposition) and Jesus has no emotion in the Passion.
Mark was Gentilizer. The Judaizers, by converse, had need of a lot of blood shed. They had extreme need of Psalm 22:17 and of nails and of blood. If Psalm 22:17 was not there, they would have invented it! That Psalm could (or/and had) justify why much blood could be shed even under a crucifixion!

In Mark, differently from GPeter, there is no blood shed.

Was Mark a synthesis of accomodation between docetism (=not real suffering in body and soul) and expiatory theology (=real suffering in body and soul)? By having yes suffering but only on a mere fleshly carnal physical level? Without suffering in the soul?

Afterall, you call it separationism.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 6518
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Judaizers allied with worshippers of Attis in Galatia against Paul

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:55 am

But in GPeter there is also separationism:

And they brought two wrongdoers and crucified the Lord in the middle of them. But he was silent as having no pain

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... brown.html

Despite of the Judaizing need of "nails":

And they drew out the nails from the hands of the Lord and placed him on the earth; and all the earth was shaken, and a great fear came about.

The strong suspicion is that GPeter was a separationist gospel and was later judaized by adding the "nails".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 6518
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Judaizers allied with worshippers of Attis in Galatia against Paul

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:30 am

The separationism seems to be a pauline thing per Romans 1:4. 8:3b-6

God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh ['kata sarka'] but according to Spirit ['kata pneuma']. For they that are according to flesh ['kata sarka'] mind the things of the flesh; and they that are according to Spirit ['kata pneuma'], the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh [is] death; but the mind of the Spirit life and peace."

if Jesus suffers "in the flesh", it is why he doesn't suffer "in the spirit".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 6518
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Judaizers allied with worshippers of Attis in Galatia against Paul

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:15 pm

1 Corinthians 12:3 is pure separationism:

Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is anathema,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit

So wikipedia:

Anathema derives from Ancient Greek: ἀνάθεμα,[5] anáthema, meaning "an offering" or "anything dedicated",[3] itself derived from the verb ἀνατίθημι, anatíthēmi, meaning "to offer up". In the Old Testament, it referred to both objects consecrated to divine use and those dedicated to destruction in the Lord's name, such as enemies and their weapons during religious wars. Since weapons of the enemy were considered unholy, the meaning became "anything dedicated to evil" or "a curse

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathema

Jesus is anathemized insofar he is offered as sacrifice. The sacrifice was usually divided aside. Hence the sense is:

Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is separated,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

robert j
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: Judaizers allied with worshippers of Attis in Galatia against Paul

Post by robert j » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:17 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:02 am

The Galatians were ancient adorers of the god Attis.
On what do you base this claim?

Giuseppe
Posts: 6518
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Judaizers allied with worshippers of Attis in Galatia against Paul

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:29 pm

robert j wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:17 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:02 am

The Galatians were ancient adorers of the god Attis.
On what do you base this claim?
In the Italian page of wikipedia for Gallus (priest of Attis), it is found the mention of Galatia:

Stefano di Bisanzio disse che il nome proveniva da un certo re Gallus[5], mentre Publio Ovidio Nasone ebbe invece ad affermare che la denominazione derivasse dal fiume Gallus che si trovava in terra di Frigia[6]; ma il termine potrebbe esser collegato anche alle tribù celtiche stanziate nella Galazia, in Anatolia, e conosciute dai romani come Galli o Galati. La termine "gallus" è infine anche la parola della lingua latina indicante il gallo.

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo_(sacerdote)

Translation:
Stephen of Byzantium said that the name came from a certain king Gallus[5], while Publius Ovidius Naso had instead to affirm that the denomination derived from the river Gallus that was found in the land of Phrygia[6]; but the term could be connected also to the Celtic tribes allocated in Galatia, in Anatolia, and known by the Romans as Gauls or Galatians. The term "gallus" is finally also the word in Latin indicating the rooster.

Note that the rite of castration for the priests of Attis was born in Pessinunte.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

robert j
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: Judaizers allied with worshippers of Attis in Galatia against Paul

Post by robert j » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:39 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:29 pm
robert j wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:17 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:02 am

The Galatians were ancient adorers of the god Attis.
On what do you base this claim?
In the Italian page of wikipedia for Gallus (priest of Attis), it is found the mention of Galatia:

Stefano di Bisanzio disse che il nome proveniva da un certo re Gallus[5], mentre Publio Ovidio Nasone ebbe invece ad affermare che la denominazione derivasse dal fiume Gallus che si trovava in terra di Frigia[6]; ma il termine potrebbe esser collegato anche alle tribù celtiche stanziate nella Galazia, in Anatolia, e conosciute dai romani come Galli o Galati. La termine "gallus" è infine anche la parola della lingua latina indicante il gallo.

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo_(sacerdote)

Translation:
Stephen of Byzantium said that the name came from a certain king Gallus[5], while Publius Ovidius Naso had instead to affirm that the denomination derived from the river Gallus that was found in the land of Phrygia[6]; but the term could be connected also to the Celtic tribes allocated in Galatia, in Anatolia, and known by the Romans as Gauls or Galatians. The term "gallus" is finally also the word in Latin indicating the rooster.

Note that the rite of castration for the priests of Attis was born in Pessinunte.
So, your reference here lists four possible sources for the name "Gallus/Galli", the name applied to the priests that served the great Anatolian mother goddess Cybele whose consort was known as Attis ---

--- the name came from a certain king Gallus, or

--- derived from the river Gallus that was found in the land of Phrygia, or

--- the term could be connected also to the Celtic tribes allocated in Galatia, in Anatolia, and known by the Romans as Gauls or Galatians, or

--- The term "gallus" is finally also the word in Latin indicating the rooster.

From those four distinct possible sources offered for the name of the ""Galli", you come up with the assertion that Paul's "Galatians were ancient adorers of the god Attis."

I'm not surprised by your leap here, but your evidence for such an assertion is laughably weak.

Giuseppe
Posts: 6518
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Judaizers allied with worshippers of Attis in Galatia against Paul

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:12 pm

You have ignored evidently the last point: Pessinunte was the place of origin of the rite of castration made by the priests of Attis.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Post Reply