"the one they have pierced" is a "son of Joseph" for the Babilonian Talmud

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Giuseppe
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"the one they have pierced" is a "son of Joseph" for the Babilonian Talmud

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:05 am

In Zechariah 12:9-14 there is the reference to an enigmatic person who dies (and presumably rises) just as Hadad Rimmon (=Tammuz = Adonis).

9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

The Babilonian Talmud points out that this enigmatic person was a "son of Joseph".

Can you give me the talmudic references? Thanks.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: "the one they have pierced" is a "son of Joseph" for the Babilonian Talmud

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:43 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:05 am
In Zechariah 12:9-14 there is the reference to an enigmatic person who dies (and presumably rises) just as Hadad Rimmon (=Tammuz = Adonis).

9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

The Babilonian Talmud points out that this enigmatic person was a "son of Joseph".

Can you give me the talmudic references? Thanks.
This passage is probably the one intended:

Babylonian Talmud, Sukkah 52a: 52a And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart. Is it not, they said, an a fortiori argument? If in the future when they will be engaged in mourning and the Evil Inclination will have no power over them, the Torah nevertheless says, men separately and women separately, how much more so now when they are engaged in rejoicing and the Evil Inclination has sway over them. What is the cause of the mourning? R. Dosa and the Rabbis differ on the point. One explained, The cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, and the other explained, The cause is the slaying of the Evil Inclination. It is well according to him who explains that the cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scriptural verse, And they shall look upon me because they have thrust him through, and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son; but according to him who explains the cause to be the slaying of the Evil Inclination, is this [it may be objected] an occasion for mourning? Is it not rather an occasion for rejoicing? Why then should they weep? As R. Judah expounded: In the time to come the Holy One, blessed be He, will bring the Evil Inclination and slay it in the presence of the righteous and the wicked. To the righteous it will have the appearance of a towering hill, and to the wicked it will have the appearance of a hair thread. Both the former and the latter will weep; the righteous will weep saying, 'How were we able to overcome such a towering hill!' The wicked also will weep saying, 'How is it that we were unable to conquer this hair thread!' And the Holy One, blessed be He, will also marvel together with them, as it is said, Thus saith the Lord of Hosts, If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, it shall also be marvellous in My eyes. R. Assi stated, The Evil Inclination is at first like the thread of a spider, but ultimately becomes like cart ropes, as it is said, Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart-rope. Our Rabbis taught, The Holy One, blessed be He, will say to the Messiah, the son of David (May he reveal himself speedily in our days!), 'Ask of me anything, and I will give it to thee', as it is said, I will tell of the decree etc. this day have I begotten thee, ask of me and I will give the nations for thy inheritance. But when he will see that the Messiah the son of Joseph is slain, he will say to Him, 'Lord of the Universe, I ask of Thee only the gift of life.' 'As to life,' He would answer him, 'Your father David has already prophesied this concerning you,' as it is said, He asked life of thee, thou gavest it him, [even length of days for ever and ever]. ....

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: "the one they have pierced" is a "son of Joseph" for the Babilonian Talmud

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:22 am

Refer also to this one from the Tosefta:

Tosefta to Targum, Zechariah 12.10: 10 And I shall cause to rest upon the house of David and upon the dwellers of Jerusalem a spirit of prophecy and true prayer. And afterwards Messiah bar Ephraim shall go forth to engage in battle with Gog, and Gog will slay him before the gate of Jerusalem. And they will look to me and inquire of me why the nations pierced Messiah bar Ephraim, and they will mourn for him just as a father and mother mourn for an only son and will be in bitterness over him like the bitterness over a firstborn.

Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "the one they have pierced" is a "son of Joseph" for the Babilonian Talmud

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:31 am

In case Giuseppe is unaware the Tosefta is likely older than the Mishnah and the baraitot cited in the Gemara are often quotations from the Tosefta.
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Nathan
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Re: "the one they have pierced" is a "son of Joseph" for the Babilonian Talmud

Post by Nathan » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:47 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:22 am
Refer also to this one from the Tosefta:

Tosefta, Zechariah 12.10: 10 And I shall cause to rest upon the house of David and upon the dwellers of Jerusalem a spirit of prophecy and true prayer. And afterwards Messiah bar Ephraim shall go forth to engage in battle with Gog, and Gog will slay him before the gate of Jerusalem. And they will look to me and inquire of me why the nations pierced Messiah bar Ephraim, and they will mourn for him just as a father and mother mourn for an only son and will be in bitterness over him like the bitterness over a firstborn.

Note that this comes from an addition (a tosefta) to the Targum to Zechariah, rather than the Tosefta per se.

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Re: "the one they have pierced" is a "son of Joseph" for the Babilonian Talmud

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:55 am

Nathan wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:47 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:22 am
Refer also to this one from the Tosefta:

Tosefta, Zechariah 12.10: 10 And I shall cause to rest upon the house of David and upon the dwellers of Jerusalem a spirit of prophecy and true prayer. And afterwards Messiah bar Ephraim shall go forth to engage in battle with Gog, and Gog will slay him before the gate of Jerusalem. And they will look to me and inquire of me why the nations pierced Messiah bar Ephraim, and they will mourn for him just as a father and mother mourn for an only son and will be in bitterness over him like the bitterness over a firstborn.

Note that this comes from an addition (a tosefta) to the Targum to Zechariah, rather than the Tosefta per se.
Thanks. I have adjusted the reference to reflect this more accurately.
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