Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

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Lostntym8
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Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

Post by Lostntym8 »

Among the supposed false predictions, by Jesus, of the end of the world within the lifetime of his followers is the interesting prediction (Matthew 21 paralleled in Mark 12 and Luke 20) that "the husbandmen" of the vineyard would be "miserably destroyed" for their wickedness and then "will be let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons."

This would seem to acknowledge that after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. the work of producing fruit for the "householder" would continue in new hands and the fruits would be turned over to him in due season.

The account in Matthew 22 of the marriage feast gives similar information but with a more explicit reference to the destruction of the city. With a subsequent command to those who are favored by the king to continue inviting and gathering guests to the marriage feast. When all are collected to the marriage feast then the guests are examined and the unworthy thrown out into the darkness. This would have given direction to those 1st century Christians who would have been confounded by the destruction of Jerusalem and "delay" in the coming of the kingdom of God. So it seems to me that to focus on the prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem by Jesus and the attendant expectation of the coming of the kingdom without taking into account the prediction of continued life and activity in the king's service after Jerusalem's destruction is shortsighted.

Matthew 21:33-43
33 Hear another parable: There was a man that was a householder, who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge about it, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into another country. 34 And when the season of the fruits drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, to receive his fruits. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them in like manner. 37 But afterward he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But the husbandmen, when they saw the son, said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and take his inheritance. 39 And they took him, and cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 22:1-13
22 And Jesus answered and spake again in parables unto them, saying, 2The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son, 3 and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the marriage feast: and they would not come. 4 Again he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them that are bidden, Behold, I have made ready my dinner; my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come to the marriage feast. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise; 6 and the rest laid hold on his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 But the king was wroth; and he sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. 8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore unto the partings of the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage feast. 10 And those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was filled with guests. 11 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment:12 and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

Post by Peter Kirby »

Lostntym8 wrote:Among the supposed false predictions, by Jesus, of the end of the world within the lifetime of his followers is the interesting prediction (Matthew 21 paralleled in Mark 12 and Luke 20) that "the husbandmen" of the vineyard would be "miserably destroyed" for their wickedness and then "will be let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons."

This would seem to acknowledge that after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. the work of producing fruit for the "householder" would continue in new hands and the fruits would be turned over to him in due season.
Very good point. I agree that this suggests a date after 70 for these texts.

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"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Lostntym8
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Re: Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

Post by Lostntym8 »

Peter,

Thanks for the welcome.

But, if these were written after the fact then the writers are responsible for making Jesus a false prophet by creating the sense that everything would wrap up with the destruction of Jerusalem. Not so? Seems like they would have been a bit more circumspect about how they presented the predictions of Jesus if they were writing after the events.

What date would you assign to the synoptic gospels? Perhaps that's best discussed in another part of the forum.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

Post by Peter Kirby »

Lostntym8 wrote:What date would you assign to the synoptic gospels? Perhaps that's best discussed in another part of the forum.
My website estimates that they date between 70 and 130, roughly.

Maybe a thread under Christian Texts and History?

I can move this discussion there.
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Re: Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

Post by steve43 »

A reasonable question is when would people stop waiting for Jesus' return and the rapture?

Three years? Five years? Certainly ten years would be enough to temper the hopes of the most fervent of believers.

The more industrious and practical Christians would then document what they saw and/or learned for others to benefit from.

Just sayin'...
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Re: Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

Post by Andrew »

What rapture? What evidence is there that they ever waited for a rapture?
Lostntym8
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Re: Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

Post by Lostntym8 »

Peter Kirby wrote:
Lostntym8 wrote:What date would you assign to the synoptic gospels? Perhaps that's best discussed in another part of the forum.
My website estimates that they date between 70 and 130...
Do you have a break down of what you would consider to be the genuine sayings of Jesus? Would you include Matthew 21-25 as genuine sayings?
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Re: Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

Post by Bernard Muller »

Here is a comment from another thread, from Diogenes the Cynic, which, I think, fits well in this thread:
Luke is obviously very late.
I don't think so. Actually, I am sure it is not.
See that blog post of mine for explanations:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p66.htm

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

Post by neilgodfrey »

Lostntym8 wrote:This would seem to acknowledge that after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. the work of producing fruit for the "householder" would continue in new hands and the fruits would be turned over to him in due season.
This possibly supports the view that the earliest understanding of the advent of the Kingdom of God was that it came and was found in the Christian community itself, especially as found in Mark. Jesus conquered the powers of the world on the cross (as indicated by the many Passion Narrative associations with the imagery of the Roman Triumph) and cast out those who failed to obey him with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. From that time the kingdom of God was found only among the servants of Christ. (One of the indications of this is the reliance upon imagery of the destroyed temple in Isaiah 22 to portray the empty tomb scene.)

We have it all wrong when we interpret the cosmic signs of the end literally. The same images were used of the destructions of Babylon and other powers in Isaiah and we know they were metaphors for earthly armies overthrowing kingdoms; God came down on his throne in rumbling clouds in the days of David yet we know this is metaphorical language. We err when we interpret the same language attributed to the prophecies of Jesus as having a literal meaning.

The promises of rewards of the kingdom were being addressed to those Christians who had witnessed or were aware of the recent destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

Post by Peter Kirby »

Lostntym8 wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:
Lostntym8 wrote:What date would you assign to the synoptic gospels? Perhaps that's best discussed in another part of the forum.
My website estimates that they date between 70 and 130...
Do you have a break down of what you would consider to be the genuine sayings of Jesus? Would you include Matthew 21-25 as genuine sayings?
No, I don't. That's an incredibly difficult question. At this point in time, a lot of scholarship is coming to the conclusion that it's unknowable.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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