Dating the synoptic gospels of the New Testament

[Bernard Muller]

One thing that always bothers me is these synoptic don't give any trace of the temple being recently destroyed.

Really?

Cordially, Bernard

[Metacrock]

One thing that always bothers me is these synoptic don't give any trace of the temple being recently destroyed.

Really?

Cordially, Bernard

not really. how would you write if your world had just been destroyed?

[Lostntym8]

I'm Lost,n tym, 8:
Why do you pick such a difficult slab of chapters from the most disparate of all the gospels?

Adam, you have done well in divining my online name Lostntym8. My first name is Timothy which only bill collectors and other agencies that desire legal names identify me by. "Lostn" is a play on my last name Lawson. "tym" on my first name Tim...and 8 is as close to an infinity symbol that I could come to. I met my wife of nearly two years online (Match.com) and she interpreted Lostntym8 as "lost intimate"...actually makes as much sense as my reason for choosing it; I like time travel stories.

I am one of Jehovah's Witness (disfellowshipped for nearly 2 years but now re-instated for about a year) and have married outside of my belief system. My wife Laura, was raised atheist and has now transitioned to agnosticism leaning toward a belief that God may exist. I have been studying Biblical Greek on my own for quite a number of years and am somewhat actitive on the B-Greek forum. I worked for a time in the plumbing department of Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff and as a side benefit I was able to take courses pretty much for free...so I declared a major in Religious Studies...but didn't get too far. I have been reading Bart Ehrman's books to address questions my wife has. It is quite eye-opening information. I think I have had to reformulate my opinions more than my wife has at this point.

Adam, I didn't know that I was picking a "difficult slab of chapters" to discuss. Your comments are very much appreciated! I have much work to do to decipher them.

There are so many opinions expressed that it is difficult to fit them into a framework. In truth I like the relative simplicity of Greek grammar in comparison to the ideas presented here. I've got a lot of work to do to even be able to ask sensible questions.

On the B-Greek forum, I am notified by e-mail that a comment has been made on a post I am involved with. Is that an option here?

[Peter Kirby]

On the B-Greek forum, I am notified by e-mail that a comment has been made on a post I am involved with. Is that an option here?

Checkbox "Notify me when a reply is posted." (when you make your post)

[Bernard Muller]

not really. how would you write if your world had just been destroyed?

Are you saying "Mark" wrote his gospel in Jerusalem?
Cordially, Bernard

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi all,

Regarding the text "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Everything hinges on what you imagine "this generation" means or meant.

Genesis 6:3

Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”

People in ancient Roman times did not keep track of the age that people died. If we take this as saying a generation is 120 years and the gospel writers thought Jesus died sometime around 30 C.E., a gospel writer writing in 150 would still consider it "this generation."

On the other hand, "this generation" could refer to the generation of Adam. Every human being from Adam to the time of Jesus would be considered as "this generation." With this interpretation, a gospel writer would understand that this generation could pass away in zero to near infinity time. If this is the case then the prediction is open ended and cannot ever be considered false. This allows a date until 200 when the first writers start citing the gospels.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

[steve43]

Generation usually means 20 years- which is the generally accepted age where a man can reproduce.

Where is your source for saying people in ancient Rome did not keep track of the age at death?

Seems a very basic human metric and for the emperors they certainly did.

[Blood]

Among the supposed false predictions, by Jesus, of the end of the world within the lifetime of his followers is the interesting prediction (Matthew 21 paralleled in Mark 12 and Luke 20) that "the husbandmen" of the vineyard would be "miserably destroyed" for their wickedness and then "will be let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons."

This would seem to acknowledge that after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. the work of producing fruit for the "householder" would continue in new hands and the fruits would be turned over to him in due season.

The wicked and adulterous γενεὰ that the Jesus character refers to are not just the Jews of that present time, but all Jews of any generation. In the sick minds of the NT writers, the Jews "passed away" when God destroyed the Temple in 70. So the Jesus character's prediction came true. The writers would not have been so foolish as to have their god make prophecies that did not come true.

The Parable of the Wicked Tenants obviously is meant to demonize Jews and extol the Christians (who aren't Jews) as good husbandmen who obey God's commands.

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi Steve43.

It might mean that or it could mean 40 years, 70 years, 120 years, 900 years or an unspecified amount of time. Because of the ambiguity of the meaning, it cannot be used to date the gospels.

In Matthew 24, we have Jesus talking about "this generation" in answering the questions of this verse: "3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The term αἰῶνος is used for age.

Online dictionary definition of aeon:

— n
1. an immeasurably long period of time; age
2. a period of one thousand million years
3. ( often capital ) gnosticism one of the powers emanating from the supreme being and culminating in the demiurge

[C17: from Greek aiōn an infinitely long time]

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Generation usually means 20 years- which is the generally accepted age where a man can reproduce.

Where is your source for saying people in ancient Rome did not keep track of the age at death?

Seems a very basic human metric and for the emperors they certainly did.

[Bernard Muller]

Hi Jay,

It might mean that or it could mean 40 years, 70 years, 120 years, 900 years or an unspecified amount of time. Because of the ambiguity of the meaning, it cannot be used to date the gospels.

In Matthew 24, we have Jesus talking about "this generation" in answering the questions of this verse: "3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The term αἰῶνος is used for age.

The meaning of "generation" (Greek 'genea' which is NOT 'αἰῶνος') as in
Mk 13:30 "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done [including Jerusalem destruction & second coming]."
(repeated in Lk 21:32 & Mt 24:34)
is explained in
Mark 9:1 "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."
(repeated in Lk 9:27 & Mt 16:28).

So some Christians were still hoping the Kingdom will come as soon as predicted up to the beginning of the 2nd century.

Note: according to Tertullian, Marcion would have in his gospel for Lk 21:32:
gMarcion: "... The heaven and the earth shall in no wise pass away, till all things be accomplished."
The passing of heaven & earth has replaced the passing of the whole Jesus' generation!
Which makes a lot of sense in a gospel written around 130 CE.

Cordially, Bernard