Epiphanius on the Ebionites

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Jax
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Jax » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:29 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:17 pm
I agree. I was eating a Shack Stack https://aht.seriouseats.com/2009/08/sha ... k-nyc.html thinking I have to pull out of this stupid conversation. You graciously explained that you think Jewish Christians used to carry out sacrifices in their synagogues before 70 CE. That was enlightening. I thought the temple was the only place Jews could make offerings. But what do I know. One more question please. You never have any doubt that any of these details in Irenaeus or Josephus might be outright inventions? Because it's in print it's true? No need to question, wrestle with what's written. It's there in print. Someone wrote it. It must be true.

That will be all. Thanks
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:21 am

If I may butt in, I take the Talmudic passages that refer to r. Akiva as overseeing the "poor" as being a more honest appraisal of this sect. The fact that James reminds Paul to remember the poor in Galatians, indicates to me that the "Ebionites" were followers of James/r. Akiva, who looked to bar Kochba as the messiah.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:23 am

I also find it suspicious that letters of bar Kochba were found at Qumran, so the community there must have still been active at the time of his revolt.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:56 am

Sure let's make another theory.
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davidmartin
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by davidmartin » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:28 am

One problem with associating the DSS and Christianity is the former seemed to be preparing to arm themselves to fight the Romans at least the narrative I've heard is the reason they were left in the caves is because they hid them during the battle and never returned
Yet Jesus appears to be opposed to fighting the Romans in the gospels, and not only that during the Bar Kohkba revolt I have heard Christians didn't join in with in
So how can Christianity really have sprung from a group who wanted to overthrow Roman rule with Jesus's opposition to fighting?
Assuming the DSS/Qumran community were preparing to fight and Jesus was opposed to physical battle, and apparently a physical kingdom
And that's not the only big difference, although there are similarities too I'm just not sure why people are excited to connect the two it doesn't seem to resolve hardly any questions

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:51 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:56 am
Sure let's make another theory.
What's wrong with that? That's all we can do is speculate and theorize with the information we have.

Considering the proximity of characters like Aquila of Sinope (who appears in Acts of the Apostles), and r. Akiva, it's not a leap of logic to conclude that this is our Paul and James.

And it's a fact that letters written by bar Kochba were sent to a Community at Qumran. All I take that to mean is that they were still active at the time.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:10 pm

davidmartin wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:28 am
One problem with associating the DSS and Christianity is the former seemed to be preparing to arm themselves to fight the Romans at least the narrative I've heard is the reason they were left in the caves is because they hid them during the battle and never returned
Yet Jesus appears to be opposed to fighting the Romans in the gospels, and not only that during the Bar Kohkba revolt I have heard Christians didn't join in with in
So how can Christianity really have sprung from a group who wanted to overthrow Roman rule with Jesus's opposition to fighting?
Assuming the DSS/Qumran community were preparing to fight and Jesus was opposed to physical battle, and apparently a physical kingdom
And that's not the only big difference, although there are similarities too I'm just not sure why people are excited to connect the two it doesn't seem to resolve hardly any questions
The Christianity we're familiar with didn't come about until ca. 165. If followers of r. Akiva were Ebionites, then more likely they followed bar Kochba. The Nazareans however, which were a splinter sect of Ebionites, didn't support bar Kochba, but they didn't support the Empire either.

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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by John2 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:32 pm

You graciously explained that you think Jewish Christians used to carry out sacrifices in their synagogues before 70 CE. That was enlightening. I thought the temple was the only place Jews could make offerings.

No, I did not. I cited Acts 21:23-26, which says that Nazarenes offered sacrifices in the Temple before 70 CE, and I noted that Epiphanius ridicules them for not being able to offer sacrifices after 70 CE because Jerusalem was closed off to Jews.
Last edited by John2 on Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:48 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by John2 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:39 pm

davidmartin wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:28 am
One problem with associating the DSS and Christianity is the former seemed to be preparing to arm themselves to fight the Romans at least the narrative I've heard is the reason they were left in the caves is because they hid them during the battle and never returned
Yet Jesus appears to be opposed to fighting the Romans in the gospels, and not only that during the Bar Kohkba revolt I have heard Christians didn't join in with in
So how can Christianity really have sprung from a group who wanted to overthrow Roman rule with Jesus's opposition to fighting?
Assuming the DSS/Qumran community were preparing to fight and Jesus was opposed to physical battle, and apparently a physical kingdom
And that's not the only big difference, although there are similarities too I'm just not sure why people are excited to connect the two it doesn't seem to resolve hardly any questions

The DSS I think could be Jewish Christian (some of the pesharim and the Damascus Document) would have been written by violent proto-Ebionites of the sort that tried to kill Paul in Acts (and the "false brothers" he complains about in Galatians) who gave the more moderate Nazarenes a bad name (Acts 24:5: "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect").
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.

John2
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by John2 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:15 pm

Regarding the earlier patristic sources that mention Ebionites and not Nazarenes (which is odd because they are all post-Acts, which mentions Nazarenes and not Ebionites), I'm thinking this could be not only because they lumped both Jewish Christian factions together similar to the way pagan critics lumped Gnostics and orthodox Christians together, but also because they could make fun of the name Ebionite (i.e., "poor" in understanding), unlike Nazarene, since that's what Jesus is called in the NT.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.

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