Epiphanius on the Ebionites

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Secret Alias
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:37 pm

But there are no other surviving Palestinian Jewish documents from the end second commonwealth period. If in the year 3400 CE the only movie that survived from our time was an Adam Sandler flick and then someone dug up Lawrence of Arabia, future scholars would writing the uncanny similarities between Happy Gilmore and Lawrence of Arabia.
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davidmartin
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by davidmartin » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:18 pm

I find it plausible Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple. That's not a very weighty prediction to be honest, the war was on the cusp of breaking out at any time and anyone with half a clue could probably have guessed what was coming. If he had predicted the date then I would be impressed!
I agree the Qumran style sects influenced Christianity somehow, and are part of the mix of influences and can't be discounted
The inner purity vs ritual purity aspect could point to a Qumran-like group maybe but not identical to them, at least not without having to modify large pieces of the Jesus of the gospels. The one place i can understand that is John's frequent referral (from Jesus!) talking about 'the Jews' etc and hostility toward them... that makes me wonder if a small amount of gnostic attitudes had snuck in there, but some influence from them wouldn't be surprising in the 80's/90's i don't see that as very original in the context its placed in anyway

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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:10 pm

davidmartin wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:18 pm
I find it plausible Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple. That's not a very weighty prediction to be honest, the war was on the cusp of breaking out at any time and anyone with half a clue could probably have guessed what was coming.
Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the Temple without destroying it. Alexander and Pompey took Jerusalem but left the Temple intact. Both Pilate and Caligula were set to defile the Temple without destroying it. The prediction might not be extremely impressive, but it was also not a very sure thing that the Romans were going to destroy the Temple. They usually did not destroy local Temples if it could be helped.
If he had predicted the date then I would be impressed!
In a weird way, Jesus does predict the date. He utters his prediction in about AD 30, according to the Lucan chronology; he also says that "this generation will not pass away" until certain things take place, and in the Lucan version of the synoptic apocalypse, the fall of Jerusalem, AD 70, is included in this range while the coming of the Son of Man appears to be excluded, postponed until after the nebulous "times of the gentiles." So we have, on the Lucan chronology, a span of very close to 40 years between prediction and fulfillment; and, according to Numbers 32.13, a total of 40 years is how long it took for an entire rebellious generation (except righteous Joshua and Caleb) to die out. This generational sum of years, marked out from the death of a leader, is also found at Qumran:

CD-B, column 20, lines 13b-15a: 13b And from the day 14 of the gathering in of the unique Teacher, until the end of all the men of war who turned back 15a with the Man of Lies, there shall be about forty years.

So all the men who followed the Man of Lies will come to an end some 40 years after the "gathering in" of the Teacher. Is it not a bit suspicious, then, that this motif should play out so nicely in Jesus' case? "This generation" had not come to an end before his prediction of the Temple had been fulfilled, and the passage of time was the mystical, generational 40 years of Numbers 32.13 and the Teacher of Righteousness. I have to say, that makes me suspicious.
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:21 pm

He utters his prediction in about AD 30
Or 20 - 21 CE
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:23 pm

I think the 20 - 21 CE date (from Josephus and the Acts of Pilate) is more amazing given that it's 49 years from prediction to realization. Also by passes the Qumran argument you're developing.
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:35 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:21 pm
He utters his prediction in about AD 30
Or 20 - 21 CE
Sure, but not in the Lucan chronology, which is what I am suspicious of in this case.
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:48 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:23 pm
I think the 20 - 21 CE date (from Josephus and the Acts of Pilate) is more amazing given that it's 49 years from prediction to realization. Also by passes the Qumran argument you're developing.
Josephus does not date the prediction; he is not dealing with Christianity at all.

As for the Acts of Pilate in question, the text is lost, so who knows?

But Luke both dates the prediction and names the fulfillment; the result of 40 years may not be accidental.
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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by davidmartin » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:49 pm

interesting i never knew that. i suppose there's precedent for the temple to be fitted into the NT like in 1 Thessalonians with 'the wrath of God has come upon them (the Jews) at last' which is really quite strange, i've often doubted they are as early as Paul though even though some say they are his first letters i can't see why at all

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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:21 pm

As for the Acts of Pilate in question, the text is lost, so who knows?
Eusebius.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Epiphanius on the Ebionites

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:51 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:21 pm
As for the Acts of Pilate in question, the text is lost, so who knows?
Eusebius.
I said "knows," not "knew." ;)
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