precisely.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:05 pm (Unless you are saying that the very fact that Talitha and Tabitha are not the same word is what requires the common source, as opposed to direct copying one by the other. Is that what you are saying?)
In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example
Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example
The common source related the exploits (sayings and deeds) of the various apostles of the Lord, especially Simon Peter (Magus?).
What "Mark" did by that source was to refer it to the his invented Jesus Chtist.
Not only Mark.
See for example the cry of Jesus in GPeter: "my power, my power, why have you abandoned me?"
Simon Magus was called the "Great Power" by the his followers.
What "Mark" did by that source was to refer it to the his invented Jesus Chtist.
Not only Mark.
See for example the cry of Jesus in GPeter: "my power, my power, why have you abandoned me?"
Simon Magus was called the "Great Power" by the his followers.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example
Another example of a story originally referred to Peter, converted in a Jesus story by Luke and Matthew.
Luke 7/2-10:
Matthew 8/15-13:
Acts 10:
At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”
4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.
The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.”
7 When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. 8 He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa.
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. 18 They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three[a] men are looking for you. 20 So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.”
21 Peter went down and said to the men, “I’m the one you’re looking for. Why have you come?”
22 The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.” 23 Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.
The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the believers from Joppa went along. 24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”
30 Cornelius answered: “Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32 Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Luke 7/2-10:
There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.
Matthew 8/15-13:
Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
14 When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. 15 He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.
14 When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. 15 He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.
Acts 10:
At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”
4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.
The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.”
7 When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. 8 He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa.
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. 18 They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three[a] men are looking for you. 20 So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.”
21 Peter went down and said to the men, “I’m the one you’re looking for. Why have you come?”
22 The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.” 23 Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.
The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the believers from Joppa went along. 24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”
30 Cornelius answered: “Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32 Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example
Another example: a story related to "Stephan" was made to refer to Jesus.
Acts 6:13-14:
Acts 7:55-56:
Mark 14:57-58:
Mark 14:62-64:
Acts 6:13-14:
They produced false witnesses, who testified, “This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14 For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.”
Acts 7:55-56:
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
Mark 14:57-58:
Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’”
Mark 14:62-64:
“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
They all condemned him as worthy of death.
63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
They all condemned him as worthy of death.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example
All these examples prove that the Logia of the Lord mentioned by Papias were only a mere collection of the sayings and deeds of the early apostles of the Lord.
Clearly, once an invented "historical" Jesus replaced the various apostles x, y and z as claimed author of these sayings and dees, the Logia became ipso facto an embarrassing material as remembering too much closely the real heroes of these stories.
Clearly, once an invented "historical" Jesus replaced the various apostles x, y and z as claimed author of these sayings and dees, the Logia became ipso facto an embarrassing material as remembering too much closely the real heroes of these stories.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example
A curious feature of the Gospel of Peter is that the killers rage not on the "king of the Jews", but on the "Son of God".
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... brown.html
Jesus suffers as he is the Son of God. Not as he is taken for a seditious messianist usurper ("king of Jews").
Evidently also this feature precedes the our gospels, since the need of pointing out that the victim was specifically killed as "king of Jews" was born only against Marcion.
In GPeter the Jews kill the Son of the true God (not their god).
In Mark, The Romans kill Jesus as he is the king of the Jews: the son of YHWH.
And he gave him over to the people before the first day of their feast of the Unleavened Bread. [6] But having taken the Lord, running, they were pushing him and saying, 'Let us drag along the Son of God now that we have power over him.' [7] And they clothed him with purple and sat him on a chair of judgment, saying: 'Judge justly, King of Israel.' [8] And a certain one of them, having brought a thorny crown, put it on the head of the Lord. [9] And others who were standing there were spitting in his face, and others slapped his cheeks. Others were jabbing him with a reed; and some scourged him, saying, 'With such honor let us honor the Son of God.'
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... brown.html
Jesus suffers as he is the Son of God. Not as he is taken for a seditious messianist usurper ("king of Jews").
Evidently also this feature precedes the our gospels, since the need of pointing out that the victim was specifically killed as "king of Jews" was born only against Marcion.
In GPeter the Jews kill the Son of the true God (not their god).
In Mark, The Romans kill Jesus as he is the king of the Jews: the son of YHWH.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example
Was it called "The Gospel of Peter" because the original sense was: the Gospel of Simon Peter aka Simon Magus?
Was the his hero not even Jesus but the Magus as possessed by Jesus (or presumed Jesus)?
What matters for me is that:
- a deity is the victim and not one called "king of Jews";
- An anti-YHWH deity insofar he is killed by the Jews (enemies of the Good God) and not by the Romans (enemies of YHWH) ;
- Pilate is made explicitly innocent against the first Judaizing voices that wanted him, and not the Jews, the real killer of the Servant of Israel.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example
This finding converges surprisingly with what I had written about Simon of Cyrene being the crucified one in a source used by "Mark".
Note also the curious coincidence:
Insofar Mark was separationist, he was known as the disciple/secretary of Simon Peter of the tradition known by Papias and/or catholicized by him.
Note also the curious coincidence:
- Jesus called Christ = Jesus possessed by Christ as a distinct being and abandoned by him on the cross.
- Simon called the Great Power = Simon possessed by the Power as a distinct being and abandoned by it on the cross.
Insofar Mark was separationist, he was known as the disciple/secretary of Simon Peter of the tradition known by Papias and/or catholicized by him.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example
Hence the chronology:
Gospel of Peter was written somewhere after the point 1 and/or 2 and surely before the point 3.
ADDENDA 2:
Papias wrote after Marcion, since Papias knew Matthew, too.
- 1) Early stories (sayings + deeds) of the apostles Simon, James, John, etc, all possessed by the Christ (not always called "Christ").
- 2) proto-proto Mark: a docetist gospel.
- 3) The second gospel (proto-Mark) used the stories of the point 1 by referring them to Jesus of proto-proto-Mark (point 2). A separationist gospel.
- 4) proto-Mark was catholicized by making a "Mark secretary of Peter" the his author, to explain the fact that the his author used stories about Simon Peter (known as Magus in Gnostic circles) to refer them to Jesus.
- 5) Papias knew only that Mark was secretary of Peter (point 4) and used the Logia of the Lord (point 3).
- 6) Marcion wrote proto-Luke.
- 7) Matthew against Marcion.
- 8) proto-John was written in a marcionite spirit (per Turmel).
- 9) Luke against Marcion.
- 10) John catholicized proto-John.
- 11) Acts, mere catholic propaganda, used the stories of the point 1 to refer them to the catholicized Simon Peter.
Gospel of Peter was written somewhere after the point 1 and/or 2 and surely before the point 3.
ADDENDA 2:
Papias wrote after Marcion, since Papias knew Matthew, too.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
-
davidmartin
- Posts: 1621
- Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:51 pm
Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example
Giuseppe, I am doubtful of Jesus or anyone else on the cross saying 'why have you forsaken me'
It seems way too convenient as a psalm quote with many uses later on
Although it lends a totally docetic feel I agree, which may have been an early Christian belief in some circles
It seems way too convenient as a psalm quote with many uses later on
Although it lends a totally docetic feel I agree, which may have been an early Christian belief in some circles