Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He kraM?

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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:43 am

JoeWallack wrote:JW:
This has Isaiah 44 all over it:
13 The carpenter stretcheth out a line; he marketh it out with a pencil; he shapeth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compasses, and shapeth it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house.
The Carpenter as the embodiment (so to speak) of idol worship. And Christians wonder why Judaism did not take Christianity seriously.

Here "Mark" (author) has his standard physical verses spiritual diechotomy. The supposed witnesses have witnessed both physical works of the hand (carpenter) and spiritual works of the hand (healing) from Jesus. Their understanding of Jesus though remains physical. "Mark's" Majestic related stylish contrast with just "hands" (maximum effect with minimum words) is gradually undone by his unsophisticated copyCaths.

The ironic contrasted transfer reversal is that Jesus' works of the hand in the Healing Ministry are, I tell you the truth, truly reMarkable. Yet it is in the Passion Ministry when his hands do nothing, and literally have criminals on them, that Jesus performs the only significant action in the history, past present and future, of the world.
Sounds good. Maybe there is also 1 Cor 3:16-17 and Mark 12:10 in the mix

16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple. 10 Have you not read this Scripture: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone ..."


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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by iskander » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:03 am

Mark 6:2
Yes , the witnesses see only the child they once knew. Regrettably, the reality of today is hidden from them by the memory of what no longer exists ; theirs is the old testimony, a remnant of the evanescent present

Busy hands build for the true G-d in Solomon days

The temple construction project. Jewish study bible , 1 Kings 5:9-7:51

King Solomon conscripted forced labour out of all Israel; the levy numbered thirty thousand men...

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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by JoeWallack » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:19 am

JW:

The Beginning of the Group Teaching The End of the Group Teaching Commentary
6
34 And he came forth and saw a great multitude, and he had compassion [ἐσπλαγχνίσθη] on them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.
8
1 In those days, when there was again a great multitude, and they had nothing to eat, he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them,
2 I have compassion [Σπλαγχνίζομαι] on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat:
"Mark" (author) frames Jesus' Teaching Ministry with the same word (compassion) at the Beginning and Ending of the Group Teaching stories (this also helps explain why there are multiple Group Teaching stories).

Specifically of course this parallels to Why Must You Be Such A Angry Young Man/Mark1:41 Jesus Angry? where "Mark" frames Jesus' Healing Ministry with Jesus' anger at the start and finish. Note that both are framed with Jesus' emotions for Christ's sake (so to speak). As usual, "Mark" uses the non-offending word...3 times.

I have faith that I have now demonstrated many times "Mark's" stylish technique of using the same word, especially an emotional one, to frame connected blocks of subject matter. At the professional level you have the irony then of the Bauckhams fantasizing about imaginary inclusios in GMark while being ignorant/in denial of actual ones. At the more important amateur level, I suppose someone like iskander denying the above is even better evidence but I prefer direct evidence. KK, I assume you accept that "Mark" does have such a stylish technique now?


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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He kraM?

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:54 pm

JW:
Fellow Truth-speaker Ehrman acknowledges "Mark's" (author) stylish literary technique of "Framing" in relation to 1:41 in his article A Leper in the Hands of an Angry Jesus in

Image

Ehrman observes that the six consecutive conflict stories are framed by the first and last conflict story having issues of breaking The Law in order to Heal:


Verse Conflict Story
1:40-45 Healing of a Leper
2:1-12 Forgiveness of Sins
2:13-17 Ritual Dietary Law
2:18-22 Ritual Fasting
2:23-28 Sabbath Law
3:1-6 Healing on the Sabbath


Ehrman only goes as far as claiming that use of the issue of Healing verses Breaking The Law frames the Conflict stories above which supports parallels between the two in general but does not specifically/explicitly say that Jesus' emotion of anger at the start and end of the Conflict stories is a specific literary technique of using a specific word to Frame. I have faith though that he will come to accept my observation as he completes his long journey from Darkness to The Light.


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Jesus Emotions in GMark

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:21 am

JW:

Verse Emotion Location Connection Commentary
1:41 Anger Beginning of Galilee Teaching & Healing Mission 3:5 End of Galilee Teaching & Healing Mission Framing of the Galilee Healing Ministry
3:5 Anger Ending of Galilee Teaching & Healing Mission 1:41 Beginning of Galilee Teaching & Healing Mission -
6:6 Dumbfounded At his physical home 14:33 At his spiritual home Framing of the Lack of Faith by Insiders
6:34 Compassion Beginning of Group Teaching 8:2 End of Group Teaching Framing of the Teaching Ministry
8:2 Compassion End of Group Teaching 6:34 Beginning of Group Teaching By using the extreme contrast of the emotions of "anger" and "compassion" the author is showing Jesus with the entire range of emotions.
10:14 Indignant Judea - Contrasted with the following indignity of Disciples
14:33
14.33
14.34
greatly amazed
sore troubled
exceeding sorrowful
Passion Preparation - The only use of emotional magnifiers including 3 Pete. Note that post Passion Preparation Jesus is being tortured but in contrast to the pre Passion which shows Jesus' emotions all aCross the board, never shows another emotion.

I leave out the "love" of 10:41. I think it is also looking for a corresponding bookMark which of course would be Secret Mark. As far as conjectural emendation or near to it goes, The Difficult Reading Principle makes it exponentially more likely that Secret Mark is original than a lost ending of GMark as Secret Mark is the most difficult reading. Ironically there are those who take the ending of GJohn as support for a lost ending of GMark when The Beloved Disciple of GJohn is exponentially better evidence for Secret Mark.


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Post by JoeWallack » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:27 am

JW:
Assist to KK:

The Beginning of the Group Teaching The End of the Group Teaching Commentary
6
34 And he came forth and saw a great multitude, and he had compassion [ἐσπλαγχνίσθη] on them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.
...
52 for they understood not concerning the loaves, but their heart was hardened.
8
1 In those days, when there was again a great multitude, and they had nothing to eat, he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them,
2 I have compassion [Σπλαγχνίζομαι] on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat:
...
17 And Jesus perceiving it saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? do ye not yet perceive, neither understand? have ye your heart hardened?
Mark 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
1. Here "Mark" (author) has likewise jewdeliciously used "heart hardened" to frame The Disciples' reactions to The Group Healings, again, minimizing usage of the offending word so as to maximize its connection effect (per Baruch Eli = minimum effort and maximum force).
2. Contra KK I don't think the Marstker is primarily going for a contrast here between Jesus' compassion and the disciples hearts hardened. For starters, "hearts hardened" is not an emotion. I think the author here is primarily going with the major theme of GMark = Reaction. The Disciples' reaction to Jesus Group "Feeding" (Teaching) or really their lack of a correct reaction. In GMark the Group Teaching was primarily for the benefit of the supposed Disciples and not the multitudes since the Disciples are the ones who will have the responsibility of promoting dead Jesus correctly.
3. Note carefully that the first invocation of "heart hardened" is an editorial comment and not an observation by Jesus.
4. Then mark my words that the second is a question by Jesus and not a statement.
5. Since Jesus is just another character in GMark subject to Fate like everyone else I wonder if the author's use of "heart hardened" hearkens back to The Jewish Bible's use of the phrase for Pharoah where it was God that hardened Pharoah's heart in order to achieve the Exodus Plan. The above does make it look like Jesus' Mission was to convince the Disciples of his Passion, Jesus failed to do so but Jesus' failure was part of God's plan.



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Jesus' Emotions (Passions) Verses Lack of Emotions in GMark

Post by JoeWallack » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:38 am

JW:

Following are Jesus' many emotions in GMark up to Gethsemane (pre-Passion):

Verse Emotion Location Connection Commentary
1:41 Anger Beginning of Galilee Teaching & Healing Mission 3:5 End of Galilee Teaching & Healing Mission Framing of the Galilee Healing Ministry
3:5 Anger Ending of Galilee Teaching & Healing Mission 1:41 Beginning of Galilee Teaching & Healing Mission -
6:6 Dumbfounded At his physical home 14:33 At his spiritual home Framing of the Lack of Faith by Insiders
6:34 Compassion Beginning of Group Teaching 8:2 End of Group Teaching Framing of the Teaching Ministry
8:2 Compassion End of Group Teaching 6:34 Beginning of Group Teaching By using the extreme contrast of the emotions of "anger" and "compassion" the author is showing Jesus with the entire range of emotions.
10:14 Indignant Judea - Contrasted with the following indignity of Disciples
14:33
14.33
14.34
greatly amazed
sore troubled
exceeding sorrowful
Passion Preparation - The only use of emotional magnifiers including 3 Pete. Note that post Passion Preparation Jesus is being tortured but in contrast to the pre Passion which shows Jesus' emotions all aCross the board, never shows another emotion.

As noted the author stylishly magnifies Jesus' emotions during the Gethsemane scene. Once Jesus has crucified his Passions, he never displays an emotion while he is tortured:

Verse Emotion Commentary
14 46 And they laid hands on him, and took him. None -
14 53 And they led Jesus away to the high priest: None -
14 65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the officers received him with blows of their hands. None -
15 1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests with the elders and scribes, and the whole council, held a consultation, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him up to Pilate. None -
15 15 And Pilate, wishing to content the multitude, released unto them Barabbas, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified. None -
15 19 And they smote his head with a reed, and spat upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him. None -
15 20 And when they had mocked him, they took off from him the purple, and put on him his garments. And they lead him out to crucify him. None -
15 24 And they crucify him, and part his garments among them, casting lots upon them, what each should take. None -

And there it is. "Mark's" (author) Jesus is chock full o emotions pre-Passion and during the Passion, when he is mobbed, robbed and shishkabobbed, never shows an emotion. Note that during the Teaching & Healing Ministry Jesus is passing out actions like Halloween candy but at the Passion this reverses with Jesus being the recipient of all the actions. We have a few correspondents here who are pretty, pretty good at always being willing to entertain the other side explanation like KK, Ben and Neil Godfrey (except for Israel). But here, regarding the possibility that "Mark" stylishly contrived to the Max an existing narrative, at this creativity level it is more likely that such an author would also create their base rather than use an existing base.


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Post by JoeWallack » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:21 am

This Ain't No Place For A Hero

JW:

An inventory of the opponents of Jesus emotions and actions in The Teaching & Healing Ministry:

Verse Emotion Activity Fictional Jews Claimed Law Breaking? Historical Jews Would Have Claimed Law Breaking? Commentary
2
6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak? he blasphemeth: who can forgive sins but one, [even] God?
None Thinking Yes Yes -
2
16 And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with the sinners and publicans, said unto his disciples, [How is it] that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
None Questioning Yes No -
2
23 And it came to pass, that he was going on the sabbath day through the grainfields; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears.
24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
None Questioning Yes Yes -
3
1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there who had his hand withered.
2 And they [Pharisees] watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
None Watching Yes No -
3
4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful on the sabbath day to do good, or to do harm? to save a life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved at the hardening of their heart, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he stretched it forth; and his hand was restored.
6 And the Pharisees went out, and straightway with the Herodians took counsel against him, how they might destroy him.
None Plotting Yes No The great contrast to 14:61. The opponents are silent in The Ministry to avoid convicting themselves in contrast to Jesus who is silent in the Passion to avoid vindicating himself.
3

22 And the scribes that came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and, By the prince of the demons casteth he out the demons.
None Accusing Yes Yes As Jesus is casting out the demons in Galilee he is also making the demons (scribes) in Jerusalem come out (understand dear Reader?)
7

5 And the Pharisees and the scribes ask him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with defiled hands?
None Questioning No No Note that all the opposition confrontations through the Teaching & Healing Ministry involve the issue of Ritual Law verses Moral and Ethical Law
8

11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, trying him.
None Requesting - - -
10

2 And there came unto him Pharisees, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away [his] wife? trying him.
None Quizzing - - -
11

18 And the chief priests and the scribes heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, for all the multitude was astonished at his teaching.
Fear Planning - - Note carefully that pre-Jerusalem Jesus is the one (so to speak) who is chalk full of every emotion. The Marskter is careful not to ascribe any emotion to the opponents in this part of the doce drama. Likewise, Jesus is the son-of-man-of-action up to this point and again, in contrast, the opponents are not shown with any action.
Once Jesus is in Jerusalem the opponents finally show an emotion...fear.


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Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except For Me and My Marky

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:20 pm

Those Inside Will Be Ouside

JW:
I think everyone is missing the Mark so far in the Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark? Thread. "Mark's" (author) presentation of the supposed relationship between David and Jesus is typical of his Reversed Expectations style:
  • 1) Start with the common assumption about what the relationship is = The Messiah will be a descendant of David.

    2) Then give the usual relative comparison = King David was greater (The Messiah, as descendant, is just restoring David's Kingdom).

    3) Then use (mis)proof-texting to reverse expectation of the relative comparison = The Messiah is greater because this Kingdom is much greater and David is only famous because he was an ancestor of The Messiah.
The context of the surrounding stories are all about reversed expectation (ironic) of comparative relationships:

Verse Relationship Expectation Reversal Commentary
12
28 And one of the scribes came, and heard them questioning together, and knowing that he had answered them well, asked him, What commandment is the first of all?
29 Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:
30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.
31 The second is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Of a truth, Teacher, thou hast well said that he is one; and there is none other but he:
33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is much more than all whole burnt-offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
Jesus answering verses questioning Jesus Understandable Jesus' answers creates more questions to Jesus A rare understandable Jesus answer ends questions to Jesus Perhaps the most straight-forward and understandable story in GMark. Until its ending. An entire discussion that is understandable and after Jesus makes an understandable answer no one asks Jesus any more questions (and "Mark" emphasizes with the double negative). Why does anyone think this was a historical story. The contrived reversal of the stories here provides the pivot to transfer emotions from Jesus to everyone else.
35 And Jesus answered and said, as he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that the Christ is the son of David?
36 David himself said in the Holy Spirit, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.
37 David himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
The Messiah is the descendant of David The Messiah is the descendant and referred to as "son" and is therefore lesser. David himself recognized that the Messiah would be greater and therefore referred to the Messiah as his lord. The author gives away (freely) that there is no underlying Semitic source. The word play on "lord" only works in Greek translations where "Lord" can be used to refer to God. In the Psalm that "Mark's" Jesus is referring to the Hebrew uses a different word to refer to God.
38 And in his teaching he said, Beware of the scribes, who desire to walk in long robes, and [to have] salutations in the marketplaces,
39 and chief seats in the synagogues, and chief places at feasts:
40 they that devour widows` houses, and for a pretence make long prayers; these shall receive greater condemnation.
41 And he sat down over against the treasury, and beheld how the multitude cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
42 And there came a poor widow, and she cast in two mites, which make a farthing.
43 And he called unto him his disciples, and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, This poor widow cast in more than all they that are casting into the treasury:
44 for they all did cast in of their superfluity; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, [even] all her living.
Wealth vs. the amount of contribution The wealthy make greater contributions The poor widow made a "greater" contribution because it was more significant to her A nice thought but [irony] greatly abused by so-called religious teachers[/irony].


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Re: Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except For Me and My Marky

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:39 pm

JoeWallack wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:20 pm
Those Inside Will Be Ouside

JW:
I think everyone is missing the Mark so far in the Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark? Thread. "Mark's" (author) presentation of the supposed relationship between David and Jesus is typical of his Reversed Expectations style:
  • 1) Start with the common assumption about what the relationship is = The Messiah will be a descendant of David.

    2) Then give the usual relative comparison = King David was greater (The Messiah, as descendant, is just restoring David's Kingdom).

    3) Then use (mis)proof-texting to reverse expectation of the relative comparison = The Messiah is greater because this Kingdom is much greater and David is only famous because he was an ancestor of The Messiah.
The context of the surrounding stories are all about reversed expectation (ironic) of comparative relationships:

Verse Relationship Expectation Reversal Commentary
12
28 And one of the scribes came, and heard them questioning together, and knowing that he had answered them well, asked him, What commandment is the first of all?
29 Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:
30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.
31 The second is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Of a truth, Teacher, thou hast well said that he is one; and there is none other but he:
33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is much more than all whole burnt-offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
Jesus answering verses questioning Jesus Understandable Jesus' answers creates more questions to Jesus A rare understandable Jesus answer ends questions to Jesus Perhaps the most straight-forward and understandable story in GMark. Until its ending. An entire discussion that is understandable and after Jesus makes an understandable answer no one asks Jesus any more questions (and "Mark" emphasizes with the double negative). Why does anyone think this was a historical story. The contrived reversal of the stories here provides the pivot to transfer emotions from Jesus to everyone else.
35 And Jesus answered and said, as he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that the Christ is the son of David?
36 David himself said in the Holy Spirit, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.
37 David himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
The Messiah is the descendant of David The Messiah is the descendant and referred to as "son" and is therefore lesser. David himself recognized that the Messiah would be greater and therefore referred to the Messiah as his lord. The author gives away (freely) that there is no underlying Semitic source. The word play on "lord" only works in Greek translations where "Lord" can be used to refer to God. In the Psalm that "Mark's" Jesus is referring to the Hebrew uses a different word to refer to God.
38 And in his teaching he said, Beware of the scribes, who desire to walk in long robes, and [to have] salutations in the marketplaces,
39 and chief seats in the synagogues, and chief places at feasts:
40 they that devour widows` houses, and for a pretence make long prayers; these shall receive greater condemnation.
41 And he sat down over against the treasury, and beheld how the multitude cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
42 And there came a poor widow, and she cast in two mites, which make a farthing.
43 And he called unto him his disciples, and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, This poor widow cast in more than all they that are casting into the treasury:
44 for they all did cast in of their superfluity; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, [even] all her living.
Wealth vs. the amount of contribution The wealthy make greater contributions The poor widow made a "greater" contribution because it was more significant to her A nice thought but [irony] greatly abused by so-called religious teachers[/irony].

This is good stuff. :) This seems to line up with one of the options I gave, the one about Jesus being the physical descendant of David but importantly being more than that, though you have presented far more eloquently what the "more" part is about: a reversal of expectations.

I may have to take exception to this part:
The author gives away (freely) that there is no underlying Semitic source. The word play on "lord" only works in Greek translations where "Lord" can be used to refer to God. In the Psalm that "Mark's" Jesus is referring to the Hebrew uses a different word to refer to God.
I just checked some stuff from Qumran, and found several indications that "lord" (adonai) was already being used as a substitute for the divine name in Hebrew. For example, a passage from Genesis reads as follows:

Genesis 15.2-5: 2 Abram said, "O Lord [אדני, adonai] God, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 And Abram said, "Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir." 4 Then behold, the word of the Lord [יהוה, the divine name] came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."

But this is rendered in a recap at Qumran as follows:

4Q225, fragment 2, column 1: 3 [And A]braham [said] to God, "My Lord [אדני, adonai], see that I am going ch[ildle]ss, and Eli[ezer] 4 is [the son of my house], and he will inherit me." 5 [The Lo]rd [אדני, adonai] [said] to A[b]raham:, "Lift up, observe the stars, and see 6 [and count] {it all} the sand on the shore of the sea, and the dust of the earth, whether 7 these [can be coun]ted, or not. Thus your offspring shall be."

Both the divine name and the Hebrew word for "lord" (adonai) in Genesis come out as adonai in this scroll. I also found some blessings in 1Q28b which seem to take off from the benediction of Numbers 6.22-27. The blessings in Numbers use Yahweh, but the blessings in 1Q28b use adonai, at least quite often.

If my inference is correct, then the Jewish custom of replacing the divine name with "lord" began before the Christian era, in which case Mark 12.35-37 could simply be a direct translation from a Semitic original in which "lord" appeared twice, once for an original Yahweh and again for the actual word for lord. The Greek translator would have used the LXX for the verse from Psalm 110 (109 LXX) itself, which is a common enough thing in translations.

This is not an argument in favor of a Semitic original, BTW, since it seems just as likely that a Greek author would use the LXX if freely composing this pericope from scratch, too.
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