Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He kraM?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He kraM?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:04 am

.
It would be interesting to know what Joe is thinking about that presumed ring-composition. Is it pressed to hard? Or something to add?

Mark 1:14 Handing over of John the Baptist
„Now after John was arrested ...“

..... Mark 1:14 Jesus is preaching
..... „Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God,“

.......... Mark 1:16 Calling disciples, two by two
.......... „he saw Simon and Andrew … And Jesus said to them, “Follow me … And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee
.......... and John his brother ...“

............... Mark 1:21 First teaching in a synagogue, on the Sabbath, Jesus authority is claimed, the crowds were astonished
............... „And they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath he entered the synagogue and was teaching. 22 And they were
............... astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority ...“

.................... Mark 1:29 A „move“ is made to a house
.................... „And immediately he left the synagogue and entered the house“

......................... Mark 1:29 Simon, Andrew, James and John are mentioned, a woman lays ill, Jesus came to the woman, took her
......................... by the hand and lifted her up, the woman is healed and serves them

......................... „and entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John“, „Now Simon’s mother-in-law lay ill with a fever“,
......................... „And he came and took her by the hand and lifted her up,“ „and the fever left her, and she began to serve them.“


......................... Mark 5:37 Simon, Andrew, James and John are mentioned, a girl lays dead, Jesus came to the girl, took her by
......................... the hand and lifted her up, the girl is alive and should be served

......................... „And he allowed no one to follow him except Peter and James and John the brother of James.“ „The child is not dead but
......................... sleeping“, „and went in where the child was. Taking her by the hand he said to her, “Talitha cumi,” which means, “Little
......................... girl, I say to you, arise.” And immediately the girl got up“, „… and told them to give her something to eat“

.................... Mark 6:1 A „move“ is made from Jairus' house
.................... „He went away from there and came to his hometown ...“

............... Mark 6:2 Last teaching in a synagogue, on the Sabbath, Jesus authority is questioned, the crowds were astonished
............... „And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man
............... get these things?“

.......... Mark 6:7 Sending out the disciples, two by two
.......... „And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two“

..... Mark 6:12 Disciples are preaching
..... „So they went out and proclaimed ...“

Mark 6:14ff Death of John the Baptist
„when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded,“

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JoeWallack
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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He kraM?

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:10 pm

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:04 am
.
It would be interesting to know what Joe is thinking about that presumed ring-composition. Is it pressed to hard? Or something to add?

Mark 1:14 Handing over of John the Baptist
„Now after John was arrested ...“

..... Mark 1:14 Jesus is preaching
..... „Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God,“

.......... Mark 1:16 Calling disciples, two by two
.......... „he saw Simon and Andrew … And Jesus said to them, “Follow me … And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee
.......... and John his brother ...“

............... Mark 1:21 First teaching in a synagogue, on the Sabbath, Jesus authority is claimed, the crowds were astonished
............... „And they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath he entered the synagogue and was teaching. 22 And they were
............... astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority ...“

.................... Mark 1:29 A „move“ is made to a house
.................... „And immediately he left the synagogue and entered the house“

......................... Mark 1:29 Simon, Andrew, James and John are mentioned, a woman lays ill, Jesus came to the woman, took her
......................... by the hand and lifted her up, the woman is healed and serves them

......................... „and entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John“, „Now Simon’s mother-in-law lay ill with a fever“,
......................... „And he came and took her by the hand and lifted her up,“ „and the fever left her, and she began to serve them.“


......................... Mark 5:37 Simon, Andrew, James and John are mentioned, a girl lays dead, Jesus came to the girl, took her by
......................... the hand and lifted her up, the girl is alive and should be served

......................... „And he allowed no one to follow him except Peter and James and John the brother of James.“ „The child is not dead but
......................... sleeping“, „and went in where the child was. Taking her by the hand he said to her, “Talitha cumi,” which means, “Little
......................... girl, I say to you, arise.” And immediately the girl got up“, „… and told them to give her something to eat“

.................... Mark 6:1 A „move“ is made from Jairus' house
.................... „He went away from there and came to his hometown ...“

............... Mark 6:2 Last teaching in a synagogue, on the Sabbath, Jesus authority is questioned, the crowds were astonished
............... „And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man
............... get these things?“

.......... Mark 6:7 Sending out the disciples, two by two
.......... „And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two“

..... Mark 6:12 Disciples are preaching
..... „So they went out and proclaimed ...“

Mark 6:14ff Death of John the Baptist
„when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded,“
JW:
[understatement]Interesting.[/understatement]
You see these different types of chiasms all over GMark. This is general evidence that if you are uncertain about whether a specific analysis like the above is an intended chiasm, it is. All subsequent Gospels tend to reduce the chiasmic structures.

Regarding the above the beginning and ending of a story is often very important to the author regarding their message. The beginning is often the question/problem while the ending is the answer/solution:

1
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
question/problem = What is the gospel of Jesus Christ ("son of God" is obvious forgery).
4 John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.
Connection =
8 I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
Verses:
14 Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel.
Thus "Mark" (author) has created a comparative relationship between JtB and JC (not just "Jesus" since Separationism is key to GMark) and this comparative relationship is significant to GMark as a whole. I think "Mark's" intention was to present JtB as representing History and JC as representing Revelation. Josephus was likely a primary source of history for "Mark" (it would have been most accessible in Rome) and JtB was historical as portrayed by Josephus. "Mark's" JtB baptizing represents the historical. "Mark's" JtB prophesying that JC would baptize in the holy spirit is not history, it is Revelation.

Note that in GMark JC never baptizes in the holy spirit (JC never baptizes at all). Thus, the baptism of JC is not for JC's audience in GMark but for The Reader of the Gospel. This is Pauline. The ending of GMark is best explained by this observation. There is no awareness of a resurrected Jesus based on history (supposed historical witness). Awareness of resurrected Jesus is based on Revelation (Paul).

I have faith that your above chiasm can largely be explained under this Historical/Revelation diecathomy:

Mark 1:14 Handing over of John the Baptist [Historical = Per Josephus JtB was arrested]
„Now after John was arrested ...“

..... Mark 1:14 Jesus is preaching [Historical = Historical Jesus had a teaching ministry]
..... „Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God,“

.......... Mark 1:16 Calling disciples, two by two
.......... „he saw Simon and Andrew … And Jesus said to them, “Follow me … And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee
.......... and John his brother ...“

............... Mark 1:21 First teaching in a synagogue, on the Sabbath, Jesus authority is claimed, the crowds were astonished
............... „And they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath he entered the synagogue and was teaching. 22 And they were
............... astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority ...“ [Historical = Historical Jesus was a teacher and impressed his audience]

.................... Mark 1:29 A „move“ is made to a house
.................... „And immediately he left the synagogue and entered the house“

......................... Mark 1:29 Simon, Andrew, James and John are mentioned, a woman lays ill, Jesus came to the woman, took her
......................... by the hand and lifted her up, the woman is healed and serves them

......................... „and entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John“, „Now Simon’s mother-in-law lay ill with a fever“,
......................... „And he came and took her by the hand and lifted her up,“ „and the fever left her, and she began to serve them.“ [Historical = Historical Jesus was a faith healer]


......................... Mark 5:37 Simon, Andrew, James and John are mentioned, a girl lays dead, Jesus came to the girl, took her by
......................... the hand and lifted her up, the girl is alive and should be served

......................... „And he allowed no one to follow him except Peter and James and John the brother of James.“ „The child is not dead but
......................... sleeping“, „and went in where the child was. Taking her by the hand he said to her, “Talitha cumi,” which means, “Little
......................... girl, I say to you, arise.” And immediately the girl got up“, „… and told them to give her something to eat“ [Revelation = JC can resurrect]

.................... Mark 6:1 A „move“ is made from Jairus' house
.................... „He went away from there and came to his hometown ...“

............... Mark 6:2 Last teaching in a synagogue, on the Sabbath, Jesus authority is questioned, the crowds were astonished
............... „And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man
............... get these things?“ [Revelation = JC's supposed audience did not understand him]

.......... Mark 6:7 Sending out the disciples, two by two
.......... „And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two“

..... Mark 6:12 Disciples are preaching [Revelation = Apostles of Jesus will teach about Jesus [note - these are "apostles" not disciples. Understand Dear Reader.]
..... „So they went out and proclaimed ...“

Mark 6:14ff Death of John the Baptist [Revelation = this is not how JtB historically died but fits GMark's theme]
„when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded,“
[/quote]


Joseph

The New Porphyry

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He kraM?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:55 pm

JoeWallack wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:10 pm
Thus "Mark" (author) has created a comparative relationship between JtB and JC (not just "Jesus" since Separationism is key to GMark) and this comparative relationship is significant to GMark as a whole. I think "Mark's" intention was to present JtB as representing History and JC as representing Revelation. Josephus was likely a primary source of history for "Mark" (it would have been most accessible in Rome) and JtB was historical as portrayed by Josephus. "Mark's" JtB baptizing represents the historical. "Mark's" JtB prophesying that JC would baptize in the holy spirit is not history, it is Revelation.

Note that in GMark JC never baptizes in the holy spirit (JC never baptizes at all). Thus, the baptism of JC is not for JC's audience in GMark but for The Reader of the Gospel. This is Pauline. The ending of GMark is best explained by this observation. There is no awareness of a resurrected Jesus based on history (supposed historical witness). Awareness of resurrected Jesus is based on Revelation (Paul).

I have faith that your above chiasm can largely be explained under this Historical/Revelation diecathomy:
Thank you for the added comments. Really interesting.

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