Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He kraM?

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JoeWallack
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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by JoeWallack » Fri May 15, 2015 9:59 am

JW:
It's been noted in this unholy Forum that "Mark's" (author) healing of the blind man at Bethsaida story (8:22) has unusual features, even by Markan standards. Do the unusual markers here parallel elsewhere in GMark?:

The beginning frame of the story:

Mark 8
21 And he said unto them, Do ye not yet understand? [Said to the Disciples]

Jesus creating sight for blind man "The Jews" destroying sight for Jesus Commentary
8:21-26 14:45-15:1 Chapter 8 is still in the Healing Ministry part of GMark while Chapter 14 is well into the Passion
8:23 "And he took hold of the blind man by the hand" (ἐπιλαβόμενος) "Definition: I lay hold of, take hold of, seize (sometimes with beneficent, sometimes with hostile, intent)." 14:46 "And they laid hands on him, and took him." (ἐπέβαλαν) "Definition: (a) I throw upon, cast over, (b) I place upon, (c) I lay, (d) intrans: I strike upon, rush." Somewhat different words but same meaning can be derived, taking and holding by force. Same action than but different purposes, Jesus', to heal, "The Jews", to destroy.
"and brought him out of the village" 14:53 "And they led Jesus away to the high priest" Jesus takes the man out of the village before healing him. Unorthodox, even by Markan standards (so to speak), but does fit the context there of Jesus not wanting attention from the healing (Jesus was miracle working but he was not enjoying it). By an act of Providence (or style) it also creates a nice parallel. Thank you sir, may I have another?
"and when he had spit on his eyes" 14:65 "And some began to spit on him" Jesus spitting on eyes in order to make them see is ironic all by itself
"he asked him, Seest thou aught?" 14:61 "Again the high priest asked him, and saith unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? " Jesus asks a question and Jesus is asked a question
8:24 "I see men; for I behold [them] as trees, walking." 14:62 "ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." The blind man answers with what he sees and Jesus answers with what "The Jews" will see. The blind man sees men carrying the cross/stauros (trees). Jesus' answer is especially ironic. In an effort to convict Jesus, "The Jews" are convicting themselves.
8:25 "Then again he laid his hands upon his eyes; and he looked stedfastly, and was restored, and saw all things clearly." 14:65 "and to cover his face" Jesus creates sight for the blind man. "The Jews" take away sight from Jesus.
8:26 "And he sent him away to his home" 15:1 "and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him up to Pilate." The blind man and Jesus are taken away once more. The blind man is freed and Jesus is incathlocserated.

The ending frame of the story:

8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.


Thus the two pericopes have quality parallels with the explanatory power of explaining the otherwise odd (even by Markan standards) additions to the healing story:
  • 1) Jesus lays hands (forcefully) on the blind man.

    2) Jesus forcefully moves the man at the start and end of the story.

    3) Jesus spits on eyes as part of the healing.

    4) The man has an intermediary condition of seeing men as trees walking.
The blind man healing story here comes at the end of the formal Teaching & Healing Ministry of GMark's Jesus as it is followed by the Transfiguration Scene which I see as the classic Recognition Scene of Greek Tragedy per Aristotle. After the Transfiguration GMark converts to the classic reversal of fortune Passion story and Jesus is on "The Way" to Jerusalem. Thus the last formal Healing story looks like a foreshadowing of Jesus' Passion with the ironic contrast, transfer & reversal between Jesus and "The Jews".



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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:22 pm

.
Jairus' daughter

:eek: Very professional mourners - but wait - not so professional
35 While he was still speaking, there came from the ruler’s house some who said, “Your daughter is dead. ... 38 They came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and he saw a commotion, people weeping and wailing loudly. 39 And when he had entered, he said to them, “Why are you making a commotion and weeping? The child is not dead but sleeping.” 40 And they laughed at him.

A wordplay in Greek
42 And immediately the girl got up and began walking (for she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.
καὶ εὐθὺς ἀνέστη τὸ κοράσιον καὶ περιεπάτει• ἦν γὰρ ἐτῶν δώδεκα. καὶ ἐξέστησαν εὐθὺς ἐκστάσει μεγάλῃ.

“literally”
And immediately stood up the girl ... they stood out immediately in a great outstanding

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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:06 am

.
Mark 14:29-31
But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise.

A poet of an Old English ballad understood this irony :cheers:

Up him stod Peter, ant spec wid al is mihte
"Thau Pilatus him come wid ten hundred cnihtes,
Yet ic wolde, Loverd, for thi love fihte."
"Still thou be, Peter. Wel I the icnowe;
Thou wolt fursake me thrien ar the coc him crowe"
Up stood Peter, and spoke with all his strength
"Though Pilate himself came with ten hundred knights,
Yet I would, Lord, for thy love fight
"
"Be still, Peter. Well I know thee;
"Thou wilt forsake me thrice ere the cock crow"


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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:07 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
Mark 14:29-31
But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise.

A poet of an Old English ballad understood this irony :cheers:

Up him stod Peter, ant spec wid al is mihte
"Thau Pilatus him come wid ten hundred cnihtes,
Yet ic wolde, Loverd, for thi love fihte."
"Still thou be, Peter. Wel I the icnowe;
Thou wolt fursake me thrien ar the coc him crowe"
Up stood Peter, and spoke with all his strength
"Though Pilate himself came with ten hundred knights,
Yet I would, Lord, for thy love fight
"
"Be still, Peter. Well I know thee;
"Thou wilt forsake me thrice ere the cock crow"

My totally unnecessary nitpick for the day: that would be Middle English, not Old. :)

But great point. And I find a lot of the early English material which was inspired by the gospels to be very charming. The writers, composers, and poets may have been concerned to convey theological messages, but many of them were also concerned both to tell a good story and to fill in details behind the biblical accounts (almost in a midrashic style, I find). The Judas Ballad you quote, for example, gives Judas a personal motive for betraying Jesus for those 30 pieces of silver: he was replacing the money Jesus sent him to market with but which his scheming sister stole from him.

:cheers:
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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:36 am

JoeWallack wrote:
Ἐγώ εἰμι,
an exact match. So GMark's Jesus says that the way to identify a false Christ is by the false Christ saying "I am" and than when Jesus is asked by the High Priest if he is the Christ, this Jesus says "I am". No wonder GMark's High Priest said, "What further need have we of witnesses?". By Jesus' own words and prediction, Jesus is a false Christ.
Can this be the Mythicist Signature of Mark? The insider knows that the earthly Jesus is a false Christ (as mere allegory of the true celestial Christ) therefore the high priest is saying paradoxically the truth, just as Peter is saying the truth from a historical point of view (in Mark 14:71- had the historical Peter really listened the news about the Nazarene!) while at the same time he is lying in the story.

Clearly Jesus wants to be considered a false Christ by the high priests so that they
...may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’
Suggestions...[ /quote]
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by JoeWallack » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:40 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyEWCNCKxyk

JW:
Name Identification Should he/she/it be at The Tomb? Is he/she/it at The Tomb? Should he/she/it be somewhere else? Is he/she/it somewhere else? Commentary
Jesus Human, son of Mary Yes No No Yes Interest in dead Jesus but he's not home. No interest in live Jesus who's back home.
The young man follower/deserter of Jesus No Yes Yes No Last we heard he had abandoned Jesus running away like there was a killer rabbi chasing him, presumably back to Galilee. How come no one ever suggests that maybe this was actually Jesus in disguise?
Salome Daughter of Herod No Yes Yes No Salome should have been mentioned by name in the Herod/John the Baptist story but her name is not there. Now the name shows up at the Tomb where it has no business (so to speak) being.
Mary Mother of James ("the less", nice) and Joses Yes No No Yes Again, the literal name identifies who the author/narrative has in mind, Mary the mother of Jesus. But the narrative is clear that Jesus' mother was never a follower/believer and the identification here, Mary, the mother of James and Joses, indicates this is not Jesus' mother. Mary, mother of Jesus, should have been at her son's execution and tomb but was not. She is replaced by a different Mary, mother of James and Joses, who should not be there because she is not Jesus' mother. Who is Jesus' real mother?
Mary Magdalene Someone else named "Mary" No Yes Yes No The mother is reproducing but not physically, spiritually. Where there was one physical Mary there are now two spiritual replacement Marys. "Mark's" Mary Magdalene should be found earlier in GMark, but it's not. It is found though where it should not be, the LE and GLuke.

JW:
I have faith here that "Mark" (author) has a general theme of Reversed Expectation and specifically the emphasis here is the expectation at the narrative level that Jesus will be in the Tomb. The author is multiplying this theme by having every name/description used at the tomb refer to someone/something who's presence/absence is the opposite of the natural expectation. Names/descriptions are used to refer to a different person in GMark while the context of GMark as a whole and specifically the tomb story indicates that the person/thing actually at the tomb is someone/something else. No stretch here since it has already been well established that "Mark" has a literary technique of stylish (fictional) use of names:

Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fiction

Birthday present for KK.


Joseph

Figures Don't Lie But Liars Figure. A Proportionate Response to the Disproportionate Response Claim (Gaza)

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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:24 am

JoeWallack wrote:Birthday present for KK.
I rate your post with ...

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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:29 am

.
Any thoughts on this? It looks like a reversal
6:2 And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands? 3 Is not this the carpenter ...? 14:57 And some stood up and bore false witness against him, saying, 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.’”


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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:39 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
Any thoughts on this? It looks like a reversal
6:2 And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands? 3 Is not this the carpenter ...? 14:57 And some stood up and bore false witness against him, saying, 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.’”

It may be a reversal, but the temple saying in Mark is specifically said to be the result of people bearing false witness. So what would the net result be? What is the reversal of a statement if that reversal is false?
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Re: Mark.How Much Ironic Contrast,Transfer&Reversal Did He k

Post by JoeWallack » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:24 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
Any thoughts on this? It looks like a reversal
6:2 And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands? 3 Is not this the carpenter ...? 14:57 And some stood up and bore false witness against him, saying, 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.’”

JW:
This has Isaiah 44 all over it:
13 The carpenter stretcheth out a line; he marketh it out with a pencil; he shapeth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compasses, and shapeth it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house.
The Carpenter as the embodiment (so to speak) of idol worship. And Christians wonder why Judaism did not take Christianity seriously.

Here "Mark" (author) has his standard physical verses spiritual diechotomy. The supposed witnesses have witnessed both physical works of the hand (carpenter) and spiritual works of the hand (healing) from Jesus. Their understanding of Jesus though remains physical. "Mark's" Majestic related stylish contrast with just "hands" (maximum effect with minimum words) is gradually undone by his unsophisticated copyCaths.

The ironic contrasted transfer reversal is that Jesus' works of the hand in the Healing Ministry are, I tell you the truth, truly reMarkable. Yet it is in the Passion Ministry when his hands do nothing, and literally have criminals on them, that Jesus performs the only significant action in the history, past present and future, of the world.


Joseph

Skeptical Textual Criticism

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