Lordship in the gospels.

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Ben C. Smith
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Lordship in the gospels.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

I have managed to stumble upon several reasons recently to look into how often and in which ways the term "Lord" (Greek κύριος) is used of Jesus in the gospels. The purpose of this post is simply to get the data on the table.

I have tallied the instances of the term "Lord" being used of Jesus throughout the canonical gospels, though I will also mention a few instances from some of the noncanonical gospels. The noncanonical gospels are often fragmentary, rendering a simple tally of instances something of a moot point, but sometimes one can perhaps glimpse overall trends.

For this tally I have excluded (A) quotations from scripture which include the term "Lord," whether I myself think that instance refers to Jesus or not, and (B) references to any character in a parable, whether (again) I myself think that instance refers to Jesus or not. I have also counted the few instances of the doubled up expression, "Lord, Lord," as only one instance of "Lord."

The instances I have included I have divided up into three categories: second person dialogue (a gospel character referring to Jesus as "Lord" in the second person), third person dialogue (a gospel character referring to Jesus as "Lord" in the third person), and narration (the narrator referring to Jesus as "Lord").

Here are the raw data:

Gospel of Matthew

29 hits total.
2nd person dialogue, 25 hits.
3rd person dialogue, 4 hits.
Narration, 0 hits.

Just for comparison/contrast, the name "Jesus," 152 hits. Lordship quotient (instances of "Lord" ÷ Greek word count × 1000): 1.58.

Matthew 7.21: 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

Matthew 7.22: 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'"

Matthew 8.2: 2 And a leper came to Him and bowed down before Him, and said, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean."

Matthew 8.6: 6 ...and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented."

Matthew 8.8: 8 But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed."

Matthew 8.21: 21 Another of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father."

Matthew 8.25: 25 And they came to Him and woke Him, saying, "Save us, Lord; we are perishing!"

Matthew 9.28: 28 When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus said to them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord."

Matthew 12.8: 8 "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Matthew 14.28: 28 Peter said to Him, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water."

Matthew 14.30: 30 But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!"

Matthew 15.22: 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."

Matthew 15.25: 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"

Matthew 15.27: 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

Matthew 16.22: 22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."

Matthew 17.4: 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."

Matthew 17.15: 15 "Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is a lunatic and is very ill; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water."

Matthew 18.21: 21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"

Matthew 20.30: 30 And two blind men sitting by the road, hearing that Jesus was passing by, cried out, "Lord, have mercy on us, Son of David!"

Matthew 20.31: 31 The crowd sternly told them to be quiet, but they cried out all the more, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"

Matthew 20.33: 33 They said to Him, "Lord, we want our eyes to be opened."

Matthew 21.3: 3 "If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, 'The Lord has need of them,' and immediately he will send them."

Matthew 22.43: 43 He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying...."

Matthew 22.45: 45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?"

Matthew 24.42: 42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming."

Matthew 25.11: 11 "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'"

Matthew 25.37: 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?'"

Matthew 25.44: 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'"

Matthew 26.22: 22 Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, "Surely not I, Lord?"

Gospel of Mark

5 hits total.
2nd person dialogue, 1 hit.
3rd person dialogue, 4 hits.
Narration, 0 hits.

Just for comparison/contrast, the name "Jesus," 82 hits. Lordship quotient (instances of "Lord" ÷ Greek word count × 1000): 0.44.

Mark 2.28: 28 "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Mark 5.19: 19 And He did not let him, but He said to him, "Go home to your people and report to them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He had mercy on you."

Mark 7.28: 28 But she answered and said to Him, "Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children's crumbs."

Mark 11.3: 3 "If anyone says to you, 'Why are you doing this?' you say, 'The Lord has need of it,' and immediately he will send it back here."

Mark 12.37: 37 "David himself calls Him 'Lord,' so in what sense is He his son?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him.

Gospel of Luke

40 hits total.
2nd person dialogue, 18 hits.
3rd person dialogue, 8 hits.
Narration, 14 hits.

Just for comparison/contrast, the name "Jesus," 88 hits. Lordship quotient (instances of "Lord" ÷ Greek word count × 1000): 2.05.

Luke 1.43: 43 "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?"

Luke 2.11: 11 "...for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."

Luke 5.8: 8 But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus' feet, saying, "Go away from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!"

Luke 5.12: 12 While He was in one of the cities, behold, there was a man covered with leprosy; and when he saw Jesus, he fell on his face and implored Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean."

Luke 6.5: 5 And He was saying to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Luke 6.46: 46 "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"

Luke 7.6: 6 Now Jesus started on His way with them; and when He was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends, saying to Him, "Lord, do not trouble Yourself further, for I am not worthy for You to come under my roof...."

Luke 7.13: 13 When the Lord saw her, He felt compassion for her, and said to her, "Do not weep."

Luke 7.19: 19 Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, "Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?"

Luke 9.54: 54 When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?"

Luke 9.59: 59 And He said to another, "Follow Me." But he said, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father."

Luke 9.61: 61 Another also said, "I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home."

Luke 10.1: 1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.

Luke 10.17: 17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."

Luke 10.39: 39 She had a sister called Mary, who was seated at the Lord's feet, listening to His word.

Luke 10.40: 40 But Martha was distracted with all her preparations; and she came up to Him and said, "Lord, do You not care that my sister has left me to do all the serving alone? Then tell her to help me."

Luke 10.41: 41 But the Lord answered and said to her, "Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things...."

Luke 11.1: 1 It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples."

Luke 11.39: 39 But the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness."

Luke 12.41: 41 Peter said, "Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?"

Luke 12.42: 42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his lord will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?"

Luke 13.15: 15 But the Lord answered him and said, "You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him?"

Luke 13.23: 23 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them....

Luke 17.5: 5 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

Luke 17.6: 6 And the Lord said, "If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you."

Luke 17.37: 37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

Luke 18.6: 6 And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge said."

Luke 18.41: 41 "What do you want Me to do for you?" And he said, "Lord, I want to regain my sight!"

Luke 19.8 (×2): 8 Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much."

Luke 19.31: 31 "If anyone asks you, 'Why are you untying it?' you shall say, 'The Lord has need of it.'"

Luke 19.34: 34 They said, "The Lord has need of it."

Luke 20.44: 44 "Therefore David calls Him 'Lord,' and how is He his son?"

Luke 22.33: 33 But he said to Him, "Lord, with You I am ready to go both to prison and to death!"

Luke 22.38: 38 They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

Luke 22.49: 49 When those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?"

Luke 22.61 (×2): 61 The Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how He had told him, "Before a rooster crows today, you will deny Me three times."

Luke 24.3: 3 ...but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

Luke 24.34: 34 saying, "The Lord has really risen and has appeared to Simon."

Gospel of John

45 hits total.
2nd person dialogue, 33 hits.
3rd person dialogue, 7 hits.
Narration, 5 hits.

Just for comparison/contrast, the name "Jesus," a whopping 272 hits. Lordship quotient (instances of "Lord" ÷ Greek word count × 1000): 2.88.

John 4.1: 1 Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John....

John 4.11: 11 She said to Him, "Lord, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?"

John 4.15: 15 The woman said to Him, "Lord, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw."

John 4.19: 19 The woman said to Him, "Lord, I perceive that You are a prophet."

John 4.49: 49 The royal official said to Him, "Lord, come down before my child dies."

John 5.7: 7 The sick man answered Him, "Lord, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me."

John 6.23: 23 There came other small boats from Tiberias near to the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks.

John 6.34: 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread."

John 6.68: 68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life."

John 8.11: 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

John 9.36: 36 He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?"

John 9.38: 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him.

John 11.2: 2 It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.

John 11.3: 3 So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick."

John 11.12: 12 The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."

John 11.21: 21 Martha then said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died."

John 11.27: 27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

John 11.32: 32 Therefore, when Mary came where Jesus was, she saw Him, and fell at His feet, saying to Him, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died."

John 11.34: 34 ...and said, "Where have you laid him?" They said to Him, "Lord, come and see."

John 11.39: 39 Jesus said, "Remove the stone." Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, "Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days."

John 12.21: 21 ...these then came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida of Galilee, and began to ask him, saying, "Lord, we wish to see Jesus."

John 13.6: 6 So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, "Lord, do You wash my feet?"

John 13.9: 9 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head."

John 13.13: 13 "You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am."

John 13.14: 14 "If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet."

John 13.25: 25 He, leaning back thus on Jesus' bosom, said to Him, "Lord, who is it?"

John 13.36: 36 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later."

John 13.37: 37 Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You right now? I will lay down my life for You."

John 14.5: 5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?"

John 14.8: 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

John 14.22: 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?"

John 20.2: 2 So she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him."

John 20.13: 13 And they said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him."

John 20.15: 15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" Supposing Him to be the gardener, she said to Him, "Lord, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have laid Him, and I will take Him away."

John 20.18: 18 Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord," and that He had said these things to her.

John 20.20: 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

John 20.25: 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

John 20.28: 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

John 21.7: 7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord." So when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put his outer garment on (for he was stripped for work), and threw himself into the sea.

John 21.12: 12 Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples ventured to question Him, "Who are You?" knowing that it was the Lord.

John 21.15: 15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My lambs."

John 21.16: 16 He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep."

John 21.17: 17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep."

John 21.20: 20 Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?"

John 21.21: 21 So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?"

Other Gospels

The fragmentary gospel of Peter has 13 hits of Jesus being called "Lord," always in narration, and 0 hits of him being called Jesus!

The most common phrase in the gospel of Thomas is "Jesus said," and in only one instance does Jesus discuss his own lordship.

We find the following in the gospel of the Ebionites: "When the people had been baptized Jesus also came and was baptized by John. And, as he came up out of the water, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove coming down and going into him. And there was a voice from heaven saying, 'You are my beloved Son; in you I am well pleased,' and again, 'Today I have begotten you.' And straightway a great light shone about the place, which John saw, and then he said, 'Who are you, Lord?' And again there was a voice from heaven toward him: 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.' And then John fell down toward him and said, 'I beg you, Lord, you baptize me.' But he forbade him, saying, 'Allow it, since thus it is proper for all things to be fulfilled.'" These are the only two instances of "Lord" in our extant fragments, both in second person dialogue; and besides the above instance of "Jesus" there is only one more in another fragment.

Of the four sure passages from the gospel of the Egyptians, three of them have Jesus being called "Lord" by the narrator (assuming Clement has not replaced something else with "the Lord"). The other calls him "Savior," again in narration. None of them calls him "Jesus."

We find the following in the gospel of the Hebrews: "The Lord, however, when he had given the shroud to the servant of the priest, went to James and appeared to him. James indeed had sworn that he would not eat bread from that hour when he had drunk the chalice of the Lord until he saw him risen from among those who sleep. .... 'Bear forth,' said the Lord, 'a table and bread.' He bore bread and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to James the Just, and said to him, 'My brother, eat your bread, because the Son of Man has resurrected from among those who sleep.'" Two instances of "Lord" in narration. One other fragment of this gospel has him being called "Lord" in narration. There are other instances in which it is hard to tell where the quotation is actually starting.

The fragments of the gospel of the Nazoraeans give us two instances of "Lord" being used in narration. (Please note that I am not at all certain that the fragments of the gospels of the Nazoraeans, the Ebionites, and the Hebrews have been divided up correctly.)

The Egerton gospel fragments have two instances of Jesus being called "Lord" in narration.

The Berolinensis gospel fragments have two instances of Nathaniel calling Jesus "Lord" (and also "Rabbi") in second person dialogue.

The Oxyrhynchus 4009 gospel has one instance of Jesus being addressed as "Lord" in second person dialogue.

As a bonus, here are the raw data on the term "Savior" being used of Jesus:

Canonical Gospels

Luke 2.11: 11 "...for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."

John 4.42: 42 ...and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."

Noncanonical Gospels

Of the four sure passages from the gospel of the Egyptians, three of them have Jesus being called "Lord" by the narrator (assuming Clement has not replaced something else with "the Lord"). The other calls him "Savior," again in narration. None of them calls him "Jesus."

The Oxyrhynchus 840 gospel calls Jesus only "Savior" and nothing else (3 hits).

Discounting the noncanonical gospels for a moment, I find that Mark contains very little about Jesus being "Lord," much less than any of the other three: only 5 hits in total. Matthew is identical with Mark so far as the number of hits is concerned of Jesus being "Lord" in third person dialogue, but of course Matthew has Jesus being addressed as "Lord" many, many times in second person dialogue. How meaningful the second person dialogue category is, however, is up for debate, since other characters are also addressed as "lord" sometimes, this form of address being similar to "Sir" in English; the second person address is not always going to be making any kind of theological point. So Matthew gives us 21 hits in total. Next is Luke with 39 hits in total; what is remarkable about Luke is the 14 instances of "Lord" in narration. Finally, John has 45 hits in total, but fewer instances of "Lord" in narration (only 5) than Luke has.

The noncanonical gospels are more difficult to assess. The gospel of Thomas is at least a complete text; it shows less interest in Jesus being "Lord" even than Mark does. The gospel of Peter, on the other hand, never calls Jesus "Jesus," and habitually calls him "Lord." (I am sure one can imagine that this gospel was not about someone named Jesus at all, but I would have to see the arguments for that.) But the gospel of Peter is fragmentary, so who knows? The other gospels are also fragmentary, so it is hard to tell what may be going on with them, but it is at least interesting that, even among the sparse fragments of some of these gospel texts, it seems far easier to find Jesus being called "Lord" than it is in Mark or in Thomas.

As I have already intimated, I have several reasons for wanting to get these tallies on the table; time will tell whether they yield viable or usable results.

Ben.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lordship in the gospels.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Obviously there are rather many (more or less complete) gospel texts from Nag Hammadi to be taken into account, as well, but I have not tallied up very many of them. I do know that some of the Nag Hammadi texts use "Jesus" very sparingly and "Savior" and/or "Lord" quite a bit more (like the Wisdom/Sophia of Jesus Christ); others mix things up quite a bit (like the gospel of Philip). Also of interest is how far one might be willing to go to call a given text a gospel, since the patterns to be found in other genres (such as in the epistles) are not necessarily the same.
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Re: Lordship in the gospels.

Post by davidmartin »

that's very interesting
what would be good is a Lord per word factor to ignore the different lengths

I checked the Odes of Solomon (although 'Lord' is sometimes meant of God other times the messiah)
109 out of 8555 words = 0.013 Lords per word
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Re: Lordship in the gospels.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

davidmartin wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:29 pm that's very interesting
what would be good is a Lord per word factor to ignore the different lengths
That is certainly one of the most valid directions this line of inquiry could go.
I checked the Odes of Solomon (although 'Lord' is sometimes meant of God other times the messiah)
109 out of 8555 words = 0.013 Lords per word
That distinction between the Father being "Lord" and the Son/Messiah being "Lord" is crucial to me, since I have been working on theories (deriving ultimately from Margaret Barker, but also informed by Richard Bauckham and Daniel Boyarin) regarding what may be going on in that arena. How did Jesus, after all, come to have attributed to him most/all of the characteristics of Yahweh? He is called by the OG/LXX designation of "Lord," he walks on water just like Yahweh trampled down chaos in the creation myth (or like Ba'al conquered the sea), he rides on the clouds like Yahweh (or Ba'al, as well), and does other things reminiscent of Yahweh. So is Yahweh his Father? Or is he himself Yahweh in some sense, according to these early Christians? Or do those Christians disagree with each other on that score, or are they perhaps not entirely sure themselves?
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Re: Lordship in the gospels.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:47 pm Obviously there are rather many (more or less complete) gospel texts from Nag Hammadi to be taken into account, as well, but I have not tallied up very many of them. I do know that some of the Nag Hammadi texts use "Jesus" very sparingly and "Savior" and/or "Lord" quite a bit more (like the Wisdom/Sophia of Jesus Christ); others mix things up quite a bit (like the gospel of Philip). Also of interest is how far one might be willing to go to call a given text a gospel, since the patterns to be found in other genres (such as in the epistles) are not necessarily the same.
Instead of going this route immediately, I may simplify and use the list of earliest physical evidence for the gospel texts from chapter 11 of John Dominic Crossan's The Birth of Christianity, not because paleographic dating is foolproof or anything of that nature, but rather because the list is manageable and based upon an apparently objective effort by Abbé Joseph van Haelst to list the manuscript evidence for Christian texts. Also, eliminating those gospels which are known only through patristic quotations takes care of any possibility that the church father himself is responsible for having introduced "Lord" or "Savior" for "Jesus" (or vice versa) into the text out of personal preference or habit.

The list of gospel texts which results from taking into consideration only those for which physical evidence exists up through early century III includes, helpfully, both canonical and noncanonical gospels: Matthew, Luke, John, Egerton, Peter, Thomas, and Mary. Since the publication of The Birth of Christianity, however, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 5345 (= Ƿ137) puts Mark on the list; and I have not decided yet about the gospel of Judas, since the earliest given date for codex Tchacos (220) is right on the cusp. I will have to give that more thought. So the following would be the list that I want to work with, and I have also listed the manuscript bases for the selection:

Matthew, Ƿ64, Ƿ67, Ƿ77.
Mark, Ƿ137.
Luke, Ƿ4, Ƿ75.
John, Ƿ52, Ƿ66, Ƿ75.
Egerton, papyrus Egerton 2 & Köln 255.
Peter, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 2949.
Thomas, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1 & Oxyrhynchus 655 (~ papyrus Oxyrhynchus 654).
Mary, papyrus Rylands Greek 463.
Judas, codex Tchacos (220-340)??

To be clear, I want to work with the entire text (if it exists) of each of these works, and not just from the fragments themselves, which are nothing more than an attempt to create a somewhat objective working list of gospels which can reasonably claim, on the basis of hard evidence, to be early. And then, of course, other texts may enter into the picture to see if whatever results I have found seem to make sense when applied further afield.
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Re: Lordship in the gospels.

Post by davidmartin »

That distinction between the Father being "Lord" and the Son/Messiah being "Lord" is crucial to me, since I have been working on theories (deriving ultimately from Margaret Barker, but also informed by Richard Bauckham and Daniel Boyarin) regarding what may be going on in that arena. How did Jesus, after all, come to have attributed to him most/all of the characteristics of Yahweh? He is called by the OG/LXX designation of "Lord," he walks on water just like Yahweh trampled down chaos in the creation myth (or like Ba'al conquered the sea), he rides on the clouds like Yahweh (or Ba'al, as well), and does other things reminiscent of Yahweh. So is Yahweh his Father? Or is he himself Yahweh in some sense, according to these early Christians? Or do those Christians disagree with each other on that score, or are they perhaps not entirely sure themselves?
There was a lot of speculation about the Name back then
I wonder if the early Christians were motivated to establish their own meaning of the Name.
They might say the "Lord" and "Jesus" would be Yahweh but in the true meaning of the name the messiah revealed and the religious authorities pronounce wrongly in meaning.
The Odes never says what the Name even is (!) but constantly do define what it means it seems to me anyway
They're not saying Jesus is Yahweh, but this is what Yahweh is
An example of this is sometimes i've heard conservative Christians insist on saying "The Lord Jesus Christ" in a formal type of way, which is very different from say an evangelical who is about the personal relationship with Jesus. The name means different things to them
In the Odes things are so casual it's not obvious half the time whether the Lord refers to the Father or Son/Messiah or whether the odist is speaking or the divine is speaking. That's mysticism for you i guess! Only becomes a problem when it has to be spelled out theologically
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Re: Lordship in the gospels.

Post by Charles Wilson »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:30 pm I have managed to stumble upon several reasons recently to look into how often and in which ways the term "Lord" (Greek κύριος) is used of Jesus in the gospels. The purpose of this post is simply to get the data on the table
Ben --

Forgive me for mucking up another of your otherwise clean threads but I believe that this question goes to the heart of the origins of the NT. The reason(s) are the Word-Plays that occur. These Word-Plays begin in Aramaic and are lost when translated into Greek (Which may have been the point of the Greekiness to begin with...). Most of this I've Posted before but I'll try not to be too obvious.

Begin with John:

John 1: 29 (RSV):

[29] The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Well, yes, Jesus is the Lamb-of-God and so on. What's the problem?

"Lamb-of-God" may be Semitic and may go back to Sumer, 1000 years earlier. Pettinato, in Ebla (ISBN-10: 0385131526, ISBN-13: 978-0385131520), and Falkenberg, tell of animal names being paired with god names. 'nmmr-Ha'ad is translated as "Panther of Ha'ad" and comes to us as "Nimrod" in Genesis. 'nmmr-Yah would be Panther-of-Yah and so on.

"Lamb" is "Immar" and thus, "Immar-Yah" is "Lamb-of-Yah" or, walking down the garden path, "Lamb-of-God". This possibility would be completely lost if the Word-Play was translated into Greek but we may already crossing Hebrew/Aramaic boundaries.

"Mar-Yah" has quite a bit of heat built around it in the literature (See, in passing, http://kurios.homestead.com/marya_the_l ... amaic.html . Paul Younan's Peshitta Forum has discussions on this, esp. as to whether the "Ya" part simply makes this root "Mar" an adjective. Another discussion I read sees "Marya" as a symbolic "Ready-for-sacrifice" word to denote the "Jesus" character as the prepared "Sacrifice-for-the-sin-of-the-world" Motif. Emotions are at a high level on this one.).

In short, this may be a pointer for an Aramaic Word-Play on "Lord" for the Original "Lamb-of-God". If so, it is intentional.

Do I need to tell the tale of "Immar" being the same word as "Immer" (without the diacriticals)? " אמּר " means both "Lamb" and "The 16th Mishmarot Service Group". If that Word-Play holds, then the Origins of the New Testament are far different than we have been led to believe.

Better right now to look at the uses of the word "Lord".

All the best to you, Ben,

CW
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Re: Lordship in the gospels.

Post by neilgodfrey »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:47 pm Obviously there are rather many (more or less complete) gospel texts from Nag Hammadi to be taken into account, as well, but I have not tallied up very many of them.
You probably know of Majella Franzmann's Jesus in the Nag Hammadi Writings where she has tallied these names for Jesus:

Lord =

x 12 in Ap James
x3 in Gos Truth
x3 in Tri Trac
x9 in Ap John
x13 in Gos Phil
x10 in Thom Cont
x5 in Soph Jes Chr
x45 in Dial Sav

Franzmann also has a useful appendix identifying the locations of each of these and other instances in the various writings. Includes a discussion of comparative lengths of the respective texts, too.
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Re: Lordship in the gospels.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:51 amThe list of gospel texts which results from taking into consideration only those for which physical evidence exists up through early century III includes, helpfully, both canonical and noncanonical gospels: Matthew, Luke, John, Egerton, Peter, Thomas, and Mary. Since the publication of The Birth of Christianity, however, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 5345 (= Ƿ137) puts Mark on the list; and I have not decided yet about the gospel of Judas, since the earliest given date for codex Tchacos (220) is right on the cusp. I will have to give that more thought. So the following would be the list that I want to work with, and I have also listed the manuscript bases for the selection:

Matthew, Ƿ64, Ƿ67, Ƿ77.
Mark, Ƿ137.
Luke, Ƿ4, Ƿ75.
John, Ƿ52, Ƿ66, Ƿ75.
Egerton, papyrus Egerton 2 & Köln 255.
Peter, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 2949.
Thomas, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1 & Oxyrhynchus 655 (~ papyrus Oxyrhynchus 654).
Mary, papyrus Rylands Greek 463.
Judas, codex Tchacos (220-340)??

To be clear, I want to work with the entire text (if it exists) of each of these works, and not just from the fragments themselves, which are nothing more than an attempt to create a somewhat objective working list of gospels which can reasonably claim, on the basis of hard evidence, to be early. And then, of course, other texts may enter into the picture to see if whatever results I have found seem to make sense when applied further afield.
Some slight adjustments may well be in order (due to updated information):
  • I may increase the date range to include anything up to and including century III according to an online list of Christian manuscript remains compiled by Larry W. Hurtado. Items marked as "AD2," as "AD2-3," or as "AD3" would count; items marked as "AD3-4" or higher would not.
  • I may count Ƿ69 as a specimen of Marcion (as per Jason BeDuhn) instead of as a specimen of Luke.
Hurtado's list predates the publication of Ƿ137, so I retain that manuscript on my list. I also retain codex Tchacos. Only gospel texts are in view for my purposes. With these guidelines in place, the resulting list comes out as follows:
  1. Matthew, Ƿ1, Ƿ45, Ƿ64, Ƿ67, Ƿ77, Ƿ101, Ƿ103, Ƿ104, Aland 0171, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 405 (= Irenaeus quoting Matthew).
  2. Mark, Ƿ45, Ƿ137.
  3. Luke, Ƿ4, Ƿ45, Ƿ75, Ƿ97, Ƿ111.
  4. John, Ƿ5, Ƿ22, Ƿ52, Ƿ66, Ƿ75, Ƿ90, Ƿ106, Ƿ107, Ƿ108, Ƿ109, Ƿ119, Ƿ121.
  5. Marcion, Ƿ69.
  6. Egerton, papyrus Egerton 2 & Köln 255.
  7. Dura, Aland 0212.
  8. Fayyum, papyrus Vindobonensis 2325.
  9. Peter, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 2949 & 4009.
  10. Thomas, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1, 654, & 655.
  11. Mary, papyrus Rylands Greek 463, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 3525.
  12. Judas, codex Tchacos.
Twelve texts in all, some of which are so very fragmentary (Dura, Fayyum, Egerton), somewhat fragmentary (Peter, Mary), or difficult to work with (Marcion) that they might not all prove useful for my purposes. Decisions will have to be made ad hoc, but hopefully for solid reasons each time.
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