Charles Wilson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:20 am
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:51 pmThe rest is mere harmonizing judaizing apologetics mixed with real ignorance.
No, not really.
I have talked of "harmonizing" in the my accusation against your presumed scholar. Usually, who harmonizes starts from the assumption that an apparent contrast in evidence is not really in evidence.
But the contrast of which there is evidence in the incipit of the fourth gospel, in the present state, is too much evident to be ignored, unless one is entirely
blind, in a word, is a modern Judaizer.
So
Turmel (not reported in the Stuart's blog):
Le Verbe et la Lumière remplissent le préambule. Parcourons maintenant l'Evangile. Chemin faisant nous rencontrons, ça et là, la lumière. Dans 3:19, nous lisons: . Jésus lui-meme déclare à diverses reprises qu'il est la lumipre du monde. Il le dit à Jérusalem devant les Juifs rasssemblés (8:12); il le dit à ses disciples au moment où il s'apprete à ouvrir les yeux de l'aveugle né (9:5). Et la meme assertion tombe plusieurs fois de ses lèvres dans une autre circonstance (12:35, 36, 46; voir encore 11:9, ainsi que la première épitre johannique qui nous dit (1:5) que Dieu est lumière). En somme, la lumière, dont le préambule raconte l'éclat, nous prépare à celle qui, dans le corps de l'Evangile, brille elle-meme à nos yeux. Et, puisque le role d'un préambule est d'etre un introducteur, la lumière est à sa place dans le préambule du quatrieme Evangile.
Venons maintenat au Verbe. Il ne se montre à nous que dans les premières lignes du quatrième Evangile; car, les premières lignes passées, il disparaît sans laisser aucune trace. Cette disparition est étonnante. En voyant ce personnage si fièrement campé sur le seuil meme de l'édifice johannique, on croit se trouver en face du maitre de la maison. On entre. Dans l'intérieur nul ne le connait, nul meme n'a entendu parler de lui. Comment expliquer ce contraste? Pourquoi le Christ johannique ne se donne-t-il lui-meme jamais le nom de Verbe? Pourquoi ne fait-il jamais allusion à son oeuvre créatrice?
A en croire le texte, sous la forme qu'il a aujourd'hui, c'est le Verbe que le monde n'a pas connu (10c); c'est le Verbe encore qui est venu chez lui, et que le siens n'ont pas reçu; enfin c'est le Verbe qui a transformé en enfants de Dieu ceux qui l'ont reçu, et qui leur a procuré une naissance divine. A l'origine (du texte) il n'en était pas ainsi. Alors, la Lumière seule était en cause; et la main d'un interpolateur a passé par là qui a dépouillé la Lumière au bénéfice du Verbe.
my translation:
The Word and the Light fill the preamble. Let's go through the gospel now. Way making we meet, here and there, the light. In 3:19, we read: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Jesus himself declares on several occasions that he is the light of the world. He says it in Jerusalem before the assembled Jews (8:12); he tells it to his disciples as he begins to open the eyes of the blind man (9:5). And the same assertion comes out several times from his lips in another circumstance (12:35, 36, 46, see again 11:9, as well as the first Johnnihne epistle which tells us (1:5) that God is light). In short, the light, whose preamble tells the brightness, prepares us for the one who, in the body of the Gospel, shines in our eyes. And since the role of a preamble is to be an introducer, the light is in its place in the preamble of the fourth Gospel.
Now let us come to the Word. It shows himself to us only in the first lines of the fourth Gospel; because, the first lines passed, it disappears without leaving any trace. This disappearance is amazing. Seeing this character so proudly encamped on the very threshold of the Johannine building, we think we are in front of the master of the house. We enter. Inside no one knows him, no one has heard of him. How to explain this contrast? Why does the Christ Johannine never give himself the name of Word? Why does he never refer to his creative work? To believe the text, in the form it has today, is the Word that the world has not known (10c); it is the Word who has come to him, and his family has not received; finally it is the Word who has transformed into children of God those who have received it, and who has procured for them a divine birth. At the origin (of the text) it was not so. Then only the Light was involved; and the hand of an interpolator has passed through there who has stripped the Light for the benefit of the Word.
(my bold)
Turmel has pointed clearly that a contrast is in evidence, here, between the Word and the Light.
Who thinks otherwise can only be an harmonizer and a Judaizer.
Honesty requires that we accept that proto-John was written in a marcionite spirit. Period.
