davidmartin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:29 pm
Could this represent the demiurge in guise of Herod attacking the 'children', ie the first church and be a story based on that persecution?
No, no, attention, please. The incipit of Luke is how much more anti-gnostic can be imagined. Herod is the pharaon redivivus, not the demiurge.
I see the reference to demiurge in Mark in:
the passage of Mark 13 above quoted by Ben
the father of Jesus called Christ in opposition to the alien Father of which "Barabbas" is the son.
the Jesus who heals the blind man of Bethsaida by spitting etc: he is portrayed deliberately as clumsy as the demiurge in his creation. The warning is: if you accuse the demiurge of clumsiness in creation, then accordingly you should also accuse Jesus (if you have courage).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
I'm more interested in the fact that some of the stories about Jesus came from Phillip's daughters, and that the account in Matthew of the slaying of the infants is encoded true church history, and that the same account again in another form is found in the infancy gospel. Phillips daughters are historical people, mentioned in various sources, played an active role, were known to give stories, were around during the time the gospels were being written. I could say more
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:51 pm
Incidentally, Stuart makes an interesting case somewhere (I forget where) that there is a reaction against the demiurge in the Marcan synoptic apocalypse:
Mark 13.19: 19 For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
This unnecessary addition to the sentiment of the verse may be affirming, against the Gnostics, that God is indeed the creator.
I like this interpretation. I do not know whether or not it is correct, but I like it. It makes sense to me. I am not against finding the shadow of the demiurge in the gospels; I am simply against bad arguments made in favor of the demiurge being present in the gospels.
This phrase is missing in Codex Bezae and other manuscripts. It is possibly both anti-demiurgical and secondary.
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:51 pm
Incidentally, Stuart makes an interesting case somewhere (I forget where) that there is a reaction against the demiurge in the Marcan synoptic apocalypse:
Mark 13.19: 19 For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
This unnecessary addition to the sentiment of the verse may be affirming, against the Gnostics, that God is indeed the creator.
I like this interpretation. I do not know whether or not it is correct, but I like it. It makes sense to me. I am not against finding the shadow of the demiurge in the gospels; I am simply against bad arguments made in favor of the demiurge being present in the gospels.
This phrase is missing in Codex Bezae and other manuscripts. It is possibly both anti-demiurgical and secondary.
Yes, that would be my guess: a gloss. I do not think the original thrust of Mark 13 had anything to do with the demiurge, whether positively or negatively.
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:52 amYes, that would be my guess: a gloss. I do not think the original thrust of Mark 13 had anything to do with the demiurge, whether positively or negatively.
Mark 13: 17 (RSV):
[17] And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
Josephus, Antiquities..., 13, 14, 2:
"...after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had; and when he had shut up the most powerful of them in the city Bethome, he besieged them therein; and when he had taken the city, and gotten the men into his power, he brought them to Jerusalem, and did one of the most barbarous actions in the world to them; for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes..."
"Demiurge"? Are you effing kidding me, Giuseppe?
Ben, you are being much too kind.
