Paul, the lesser Christ

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Paul, the lesser Christ

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:45 pm How would Ignatius of Antioch fit in?
From what I can so far ascertain--and I've read Parvus's book on this--Ignatius seems to me to be a development of a later, Syrian tradition that was retrofitted back into history. Even applying "Ignatius Theophorus" to Peregrinus seems, as per Parvus's theory, anachronistic. Parvus's argue's that this character is based on the early career of Peregrinus when he was imprisoned in Syria, yet the name invokes his later career in Olympia.

So I divide it up as the following:

1) pre-Kitos revolt, Peregrinus enters Judaism, perhaps under his real name, which I assume is Marcus

2) Kitos war and imprisonment, Peregrinus composes letters for support from his followers

3) post-eclipse of 118 ad , Marcus assumes the name Paulus as a religious moniker (I have a conspiracy theory that he was at this time under the employment of the Empire, with his "spy name" being Aquila)

4) dies in 157 ad, and his followers, both Greek, Roman, and Syrian begin creating legends about him, one of them being Ignatius Theophorus, another Marcion

Not to get pop psychological, but I see Peregrinus as a Joker like figure. (Spoilers to anyone who hasn't seen the film). He wants fame and renown and just kinda fumbles his way into, for better or for worse, with most of the work being done by later followers who only know of legends about him.
(Do you have a link for Detering's article?)
http://radikalkritik.de/wp-content/uplo ... ucians.pdf
This reminds me of the following:

1 Corinthians 1.12: 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

Are these cults of personality treating Paul, Apollos, and Cephas as if they were each a "Christ" of their own coterie?
Yeah that passage never really made sense to me. Apollos and Cephes are supposed to be followers of Paul, so why do they followers themselves? I think the "'I of Christ'" is supposed to be Jewish Christians, those who only follow Christ and reject Paul. Paul makes a big to do about his claim of being the only one who has understood the revelation of Christ and that no one, not even an angel, should dissuade others from it.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul, the lesser Christ

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:52 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:45 pm How would Ignatius of Antioch fit in?
From what I can so far ascertain--and I've read Parvus's book on this--Ignatius seems to me to be a development of a later, Syrian tradition that was retrofitted back into history. Even applying "Ignatius Theophorus" to Peregrinus seems, as per Parvus's theory, anachronistic. Parvus's argue's that this character is based on the early career of Peregrinus when he was imprisoned in Syria, yet the name invokes his later career in Olympia.

So I divide it up as the following:

1) pre-Kitos revolt, Peregrinus enters Judaism, perhaps under his real name, which I assume is Marcus

2) Kitos war and imprisonment, Peregrinus composes letters for support from his followers

3) post-eclipse of 118 ad , Marcus assumes the name Paulus as a religious moniker (I have a conspiracy theory that he was at this time under the employment of the Empire, with his "spy name" being Aquila)

4) dies in 157 ad, and his followers, both Greek, Roman, and Syrian begin creating legends about him, one of them being Ignatius Theophorus, another Marcion

Not to get pop psychological, but I see Peregrinus as a Joker like figure. (Spoilers to anyone who hasn't seen the film). He wants fame and renown and just kinda fumbles his way into, for better or for worse, with most of the work being done by later followers who only know of legends about him.
(Do you have a link for Detering's article?)
http://radikalkritik.de/wp-content/uplo ... ucians.pdf
Thanks!
This reminds me of the following:

1 Corinthians 1.12: 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

Are these cults of personality treating Paul, Apollos, and Cephas as if they were each a "Christ" of their own coterie?
Yeah that passage never really made sense to me. Apollos and Cephes are supposed to be followers of Paul, so why do they followers themselves? I think the "'I of Christ'" is supposed to be Jewish Christians, those who only follow Christ and reject Paul. Paul makes a big to do about his claim of being the only one who has understood the revelation of Christ and that no one, not even an angel, should dissuade others from it.
This is one of many spots at which, IMO, solus Paulus fails as an explanatory principle of early Christianity. My take on this passage is simply that there were many early apostles, each of them being a prophet speaking in the name of the Lord. Warnings circulated which advised people to accept these wandering prophets as if they were the Lord himself. These warnings operated on the principle that the sent one was essentially acting as the sender:

Didache 4.1: 1 My child, you shall remember him who speaks unto you the word of God night and day, and you shall honor him as you do the Lord, for where the Lordship is spoken, there is the Lord [ὅθεν γὰρ ἡ κυριότης λαλεῖται, ἐκεῖ κύριός ἐστιν].

Didache 11.4: 4 Let every apostle that comes to you be received as the Lord.

At first, in my current judgment, "the Lord" meant God, El Elyon, the Most High. But later "the Lord" came to mean Jesus. The principle, however, remained the same:

Galatians 4.12-14: 12 I beg of you, brethren, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You have done me no wrong; 13 but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel to you the first time; 14 and that which was a trial to you in my flesh you did not despise or spit at, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.

Luke 10.16: 16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

Matthew 10.40: 40 “Whoever welcomes you welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.”

Mark 9.36-37: 36 Then he took a little child and put it among them; and taking it in his arms, he said to them, 37 “Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes not me but the one who sent me.”

Matt 18.2-5: 2 He called a child, whom he put among them, 3 and said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.”

Luke 9:47-48a: 47 But Jesus, aware of their inner thoughts, took a little child and put it by his side, 48a and said to them, “Whoever welcomes this child in my name welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.”

John 12.44-50: 44 Then Jesus cried aloud: “Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come as light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me should not remain in the darkness. 47 I do not judge anyone who hears my words and does not keep them, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my word has a judge; on the last day the word that I have spoken will serve as judge, 49 for I have not spoken on my own, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I speak, therefore, I speak just as the Father has told me.”

John 13.20: 20 “Very truly, I tell you, whoever receives one whom I send receives me; and whoever receives me receives him who sent me.”

The principle even applied at a later stage to the bishops who were starting to take the place of the apostles/prophets:

Ignatius to the Ephesians 6.1: 1 Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself.

Back in the early stages, however, each individual apostle/prophet would be authorized by God himself; the thing is, the Messiah is also authorized by God himself. Such a situation puts these apostles/prophets at the same level as the Messiah in a way (each party answering directly to God, without a mediator), exactly as we find in Paul's complaint:

1 Corinthians 1.11-12: 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

This explains why Christ appears as just one of several cult leaders, as it were. Each leader, whether contemporary and fully human (Paul, Apollos, Cephas) or deceased and exalted or even divine (Christ), was operating at the same level of relation to the Most High God. Only later would Christ become thought of as the necessary mediator between God and all of humanity.

You may well be correct that the "Christ party" consisted of Jewish Christians; there is nothing (yet) in my suggestion to insist otherwise.

YMMV.
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DCHindley
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Re: Paul, the lesser Christ

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:12 am Am I the only one who thinks that Metatron sounds like the name of a Saturday morning cartoon robot or some such?
Yes, like early English-dubbed Japanese super-figures Ultra Man (a space alien) or Johnny Socko's Flying Robot (looks like the Sphinx), or the Power Rangers (these just look goofy.

I always thought that the story of Metatron and the "descents" (actually ascents) of the sages through the heavenly spheres, encountering dangers from guardian angels and constantly challenged for passwords and drawn symbols, would make a really good Dungeons & Dragons type game. If you make a mistake, a million iron bars fall on you :tomato: , so intense study is required to figure out the passwords (based in scripture) to get past the guards.

DCH (never played it ...)
perseusomega9
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Re: Paul, the lesser Christ

Post by perseusomega9 »

Metatron did make it's way into a survival-horror video game series
https://evil.fandom.com/wiki/Seal_of_Metatron
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe
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