1 Corinthians 2:6-8 --- Archons as Demons? Nope.

[Giuseppe]

Your #2 requires more of an argument; right now it is merely an assertion.

Simple.
The Stoikeia are "poor" for the simple reason that they are the same Archons who "are going to be reduced to nothing" of 1 Cor 2. They are decadent (and not still decayed completely) rulers.

And your #1 was already dealt with by Robert in the OP, since he is arguing that the exact cosmological standing and constitution of the "rulers" are not in view.

Robert_J doesn't even talk about it. The ruler of an entire cosmological aeon can only be a demon. The "prince of this world" in the fourth gospel is surely a demon (pace Frans Vermeiren), but he is described there deliberately as a political ruler (by using "of this world" as opposed to "of this Aeon") because Pilate is there a political human agent of the demiurge.

[Giuseppe]

Again, not true. The human agents may be acting at the behest of the demonic archontes. Their own human knowledge would not even be in the equation.

But when Paul says:

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

"they" can only be demons, because Paul is talking about a potential element of their knowledge, per the distinction in verse 6 :

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor [the wisdom] of the princes of this world, that come to nought

• Without that distinction, what the archons could know, was indistinct human/demonic knowledge.

• With that distinction, anything the archons could know, was eo ipso potential part and parcel of the "wisdom of the archons of this world" as opposed to the wisdom of humans.

[Ben C. Smith]

Your #2 requires more of an argument; right now it is merely an assertion.

Simple.
The Stoikeia are "poor" for the simple reason that they are the same Archons who "are going to be reduced to nothing" of 1 Cor 2. They are decadent (and not still decayed completely) rulers.

Not all things which are being reduced to nothing are necessarily equivalent. You have committed this logical fallacy before. It is the same as:

• Sparrows can fly.
• Bees can fly.
• Therefore, sparrows are bees.

And your #1 was already dealt with by Robert in the OP, since he is arguing that the exact cosmological standing and constitution of the "rulers" are not in view.

Robert_J doesn't even talk about it.

Correct. He bypasses it, thus rendering it (to his own satisfaction) unnecessary. (He does this elsewhere a lot with regard to Paul; a lot of his perspective on Paul involves the apostle dealing, not with the world around him, but rather with scripture alone.)

For general reference, here are some of the commentaries on this issue. There is no need for you to read these, Giuseppe, because you have not interest in interpreting these things sine ira et studio, but others might be interested in the range of options available, as well as some of the arguments mounted on all sides:

Joseph A. Fitzmyer, 1 Corinthians (Anchor Bible), pages 175-176:

The phrase, “the rulers of this age,” which occurs again in 2:8, where it is said that they “crucified the Lord of glory,” is problematic. It has been interpreted in three different ways: (1) As “spirits or demons” associated with Beelzebul, archо̄n tо̄n daimoniо̄n, “ruler of demons” (Matt 12:24); cf. 2 Cor 4:4; Col 2:15; Eph 1:21; 2:2. So Tertullian, Origen, and among modern commentators Adeyemi, Barrett, Bousset, Bultmann, Conzelmann, Héring, Kümmel, Lietzmann, Ling, Schrage, J. Weiss, Wilckens. (2) As “human political and social authorities” (e.g., Pilate, Herod, Caiaphas), because of the contrast between God’s wisdom and human wisdom in the context of this paragraph. So Ballarini, Carr, Fee, Godet, Lightfoot, Lindemann, Miller, Munck, Pesce, Peterson, Robertson-Plummer, Schniewind, Strobel. (3) As “human rulers and the spiritual forces behind them,” something like the angels of the nations (Deut 32:8; Sir 17:17; Dan 10:12–21). So Boyd, Caird, Collins, Cullmann, Garland, Macgregor, Thiselton.

The plur. archontes is used elsewhere in the NT only for human rulers, whereas the sing. archо̄n is found for a demon such as Beelzebul (Matt 9:34; 12:24; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15; John 12:31; 14:30; 16:30). The plur. archontes, denoting human rulers, occurs often in a context having to do with the passion or death of Jesus: Luke 23:13, 35; 24:20; Acts 3:17; 4:8, 26 (quotation of Ps 2:1–2); 13:27. For other uses, see also Matt 20:25; Luke 14:1; John 7:26, 48; 12:42; Acts 4:5; 14:5; 16:19; Rom 13:3. Such ocurrences make it highly likely that the Pauline phrase here is to be understood in this way. This interpretation is further supported, first, by the use of “this age” in 1:20 and 3:19, where it refers to this world (kosmos) of human beings and, secondly, by the following ptc. katargoumenо̄n, which is more suited to those who trust their human wisdom than to spirits (see further Adeyemi, “The Rulers”; Carr, “The Rulers; Miller, “Archontо̄n”).

The pres. ptc. katargoumenо̄n, lit. “being made powerless,” has to be understood as in 1:28 and like the proskaira of 2 Cor 4:18, “transitory,” for they are “doomed to perish” (BDAG, 525–26). Such rulers are part of the passing, unstable world (1 Cor 7:31).

Hans Conzelmann, 1 Corinthians (Hermeneia), page 61: The question whether the ἄρχοντες, "governing powers," are demons or political powers has long been in dispute. The mythical context suggests the interpretation demons, and so also does the solemn predication τῶν καταργουμένων, "which are being brought to nothing." They are the minions of the "god of this aeon" (2 Cor 4:4).

Gordon D. Fee, 1 Corinthians (New International Commentary), pages 101-102: ...there has been a growing consensus over many years that the "rulers" are demonic powers, or at least that by these words Paul wants the Corinthians to see demonic powers as lying behind the activity of the earthly rulers. This oft-repeated assertion needs finally to be laid to rest since the linguistic evidence, the context, and Pauline theology all argue against it. [The linguistic evidence is decisive: (1) the term ἄρχοντες is never equated with the ἀρχαί of Col. 1:16 and Eph. 6:12; (2) when ἄρχων appears in the singular it sometimes refers to Satan; but (3) there is no evidence of any kind, either in Jewish or Christian writings until the second century, that the term was used of demons; and (4) in the NT it invariably refers to earthly rulers and unambiguously does so in Paul in Rom. 13:3. See G. D. Fee, New Testament Exegesis (Philadelphia, 1983), pp. 87-89. Some see the qualifier "of this age" to be determinative, since Satan is referred to in John's Gospel as "the ruler of the world" (12:3; 14:30; 16:11); but that seems a remote connection at best, since the phrase in John belongs to his special vocabulary. Nothing like it appears in Paul (esp. not in Eph. 2:2). While the "powers" do play a significant role in Pauline theology, there is no evidence that they are responsible for the death of Christ; rather, Christ triumphed over them by his death (Col. 2:15). On this whole question see G. Miller, "ΑΡΧΟΝΤΩΝ ΤΟΥ ΑΙΩΝΟΥ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ — A New Look at 1 Corinthians 2:6-8," JBL 91 (1972), 522-28; and esp. Carr, "Rulers," which also appears in somewhat abbreviated form in Angels and Principalities, The Background, Meaning and Development of the Pauline Use of hai archai kai hai exousiai (SNTSMS 42; Cambridge, 1981), pp. 118-20.]

Raymond F. Collins, 1 Corinthians (Sacra Pagina), page 129: Since patristic times interpreters have disputed with one another as to the meaning and origin of "the rulers of this age" (tо̄n archontо̄n tou aiо̄nos toutou). Who are the rulers of this age? The expression "of this age who are passing away" postulates an apocalyptic frame of reference. The NT uses of the term "rulers" (apart from Rev 1:5, with reference to Christ) are divided between passages in which the term refers to political authorities and those in which the term refers to cosmic powers who control the physical universe. The apocalyptic character of this epistolary unity with its reprise of biblical motifs makes it likely that Paul has superhuman forces, angelic, demonic, or astral, in mind as he writes about the rulers of this age (d. 2 Cor 4:4; compare Gal 1:4). Various terms are used in the NT to designate the cosmic forces popularly believed to hold sway over the universe (see 1 Cor 15:24; Rom 8:38, etc.). Among them are archо̄n, "ruler" (singular) or the related archai, "elementary principles" (plural). In 2:6 Paul uses archontо̄n, the genitive plural of archо̄n, to designate the cosmic powers (cf. EDNT 1:168). Paul's apocalyptic worldview was such that he saw the human drama as one that was played out under the influence of supernatural forces (see 1 Thess 2:18). That the rulers of this age are passing away (katargoumenо̄n; cf. 15:24-26) suggests that their power is already in the process of being destroyed.

[Giuseppe]

There is no need for you to read these, Giuseppe, because you have not interest in interpreting these things sine ira et studio

Also for another reason. These quoted scholars are very probably historicists a priori.

[Ben C. Smith]

There is no need for you to read these, Giuseppe, because you have not interest in interpreting these things sine ira et studio

Also for another reason. These quoted scholars are very probably historicists a priori.

And you are a mythicist a priori.

[robert j]

As much as I would like to address several of the issues raised, I don’t have time now to respond much further here. But I do enjoy reading the discussions offered.

I would like to address just a couple of points.

... Robert_J feels that the archons being demons is the strongest evidence to have Jesus crucified in outer space, in Paul.

This is a mis-characterization. When I wrote in the OP that the interpretation I suggested did not definitively eliminate the possibility of strictly demonic archons, or demons acting on human rulers, I was simply acknowledging that I have not seen evidence for any option that I am willing to accept as proof.

In my opinion, Jesus crucified in outer space by demons is by far the weakest option.

However, I have no problem with the concept that Paul would have seen some negative cosmic force (Satan or other similar demonic powers) influencing the actions of the human rulers that crucified his Jesus Christ (whenever in the past that death was seen to have occurred). I think Paul most likely did.

And your #1 was already dealt with by Robert in the OP, since he is arguing that the exact cosmological standing and constitution of the "rulers" are not in view.

Robert_J doesn't even talk about it.

Correct. He bypasses it, thus rendering it (to his own satisfaction) unnecessary. (He does this elsewhere a lot with regard to Paul; a lot of his perspective on Paul involves the apostle dealing, not with the world around him, but rather with scripture alone.)

I don’t agree with that characterization (or misunderstand your point). In his letters, I think Paul always used the scriptures to deal with the world around him in various ways --- to develop his system and to bolster his arguments, all in support his entrepreneurial work among his Gentile patrons and potential patrons.

I think the OP in this thread is a good example of that. In the wider context, Paul clearly used the scriptures as part of his arguments to counter the detractors around him. And I suggested that he may have used the scriptures in the formulation of the passage in question.

And to add to that: Paul may have had some help in developing this passage from his Greek junior-partner and co-author Sosthenes (1 Cor 1:1), hence some of the terminology sometimes characterized as not typically Pauline.

[Ben C. Smith]

And your #1 was already dealt with by Robert in the OP, since he is arguing that the exact cosmological standing and constitution of the "rulers" are not in view.

Robert_J doesn't even talk about it.

Correct. He bypasses it, thus rendering it (to his own satisfaction) unnecessary. (He does this elsewhere a lot with regard to Paul; a lot of his perspective on Paul involves the apostle dealing, not with the world around him, but rather with scripture alone.)

Sorry. I was referring to the following from the OP:

I think the best solution is that the archons/rulers were nothing more than figures that Paul found in a passage in the LXX that proved useful in constructing his system and his arguments.

I took this to mean that the figures, derived from scripture by Paul, remained in scripture for him too; that is, he was not interpreting them as Herod or Pilate or demonic forces or anyone else in particular from the world around him; they were, on the contrary, nothing more than figures from the OG. And this is also how I have interpreted other statements of yours concerning Paul's use of scripture.

[Giuseppe]

However, I have no problem with the concept that Paul would have seen some negative cosmic force (Satan or other similar demonic powers) influencing the actions of the human rulers that crucified his Jesus Christ (whenever in the past that death was seen to have occurred). I think Paul most likely did.

good to know. This means that there are not mythicists of my knowledge in this forum (and virtually in all the world) who argue both the following two positions:

• 1) demons alone crucify Jesus

• 2) Jesus was crucified on earth.

It can infer that there is an implicit general consensus that (1) implies eo ipso death in outer space, given the fact that even the mythicist Robert_J needs humans in the service of demonic rulers.

[Giuseppe]

Your #2 requires more of an argument; right now it is merely an assertion.

Simple.
The Stoikeia are "poor" for the simple reason that they are the same Archons who "are going to be reduced to nothing" of 1 Cor 2. They are decadent (and not still decayed completely) rulers.

Not all things which are being reduced to nothing are necessarily equivalent. You have committed this logical fallacy before. It is the same as:

• Sparrows can fly.
• Bees can fly.
• Therefore, sparrows are bees.

Poverty is not the only feature shared by both Stoikeia and Archons.
The second feature is: their being both enemies of Paul.
The third feature is: their being connected to cosmic reality (resp.: planets and aions).

Hence Occam prohibits the existence of two enemies of Paul with the same features in common.

[Ben C. Smith]

Poverty is not the only feature shared by both Stoikeia and Archons.
The second feature is: their being both enemies of Paul.
The third feature is: their being connected to cosmic reality (resp.: planets and aions).

Hence Occam prohibits the existence of two enemies of Paul with the same features in common.

Please do some actual exegesis instead of just picking out parts of the text that you can use to support your preconceived notions. I am not even certain that you are wrong in this case, but your method is wrong:

• Tigers (A) are mammals, (B) are strong, and (C) can hurt humans.
• Wolves (A) are mammals, (B) are strong, and (C) can hurt humans.
• Therefore, tigers are wolves.