All the references to demiurge in Mark

[Joseph D. L.]

I'll go one step further. Mark has ZERO reference or inference of the demiurge. None. Because that's not it's overall goal. Reading these texts as some homogeneous codex is a grave error on your part.

No one, absolutely no one, should take anything you say seriously, Giuseppe.

[Giuseppe]

I'll go one step further. Mark has ZERO reference or inference of the demiurge. None. Because that's not it's overall goal. .

Barabbas nails you on this.

Any different interpretation of Barabbas from that that wants him a caustic parody of the Jesus of (Gnostic) proto-John is doomed to vanish as snow at sun.

[Joseph D. L.]

I'll go one step further. Mark has ZERO reference or inference of the demiurge. None. Because that's not it's overall goal. .

Barabbas nails you on this.

Any different interpretation of Barabbas from that that wants him a caustic parody of the Jesus of (Gnostic) proto-John is doomed to vanish as snow at sun.

God you’re a schmuck.

Barabbas is the same as Simon of Cyrene. One is condemned, the other is released. It is only, AND ONLY, contingent upon the greater theme of transmigration of the Christ from one host to another.

The fact that Barabbas is even referred to as Jesus in some manuscripts proves that this indeed was the case. They were both aspects of Jesus: one condemned, the released.

No great polemic about the big, bad demiurge or the evils of the Jews, or the Romans, or whatever the fuck you say it is.

You’re a fucking idiot man and that you act a high and smug makes you a very hateable person.

[Giuseppe]

I am sorry, Joseph D.L., but here on Barabbas you are 100% excommunicated by me.

I am famous in this forum to be "dogmatic" about only two things, my two "Pillars" to explain the Origins:

• Death in outer space for the Jesus of Paul.

• Barabbas as Judaizing sarcastic parody addressed against the Son of Father adored by the Gnostics, along the lines described in this article.

For the rest I can concede that Joseph D.L. is right to insult me by any kind of epithet. But here I can't concede nothing.

[Ben C. Smith]

Excommunication? Dogma?

Go on, build that religion!

[Joseph D. L.]

And you're wrong on both accounts.

Giuseppe, what you're known for is being an obtuse dunderhead. Nobody likes you on this forum. Nobody thinks your views are credible, and instead think you are completely wrong about everything you say.

[Giuseppe]

And you're wrong on both accounts.

you are the idiot, here, without hope of redemption. As anyone who believes that Barabbas is not a polemic against a rival sect.

[Joseph D. L.]

How? What have you offered other than your own credulity and arrogance towards anyone who doesn't agree with you?

Outside your own chaotic word-and-term jumble your theories do not make any sense, nor have any basis in history or evidence. Hence why you only ever beg the question and never give straightforward answers.

Barabbas cannot have been a polemic against another sect because Barabbas appears in the earliest manifestation of the Hebrew Gospel, and is strictly limited to its own tradition and theology; that being, the power of God transferred from one host to another. The previous theology that came about before that, was centralized around resurrection and ascension, hence why Paul had to be assumed up into Heaven to receive the power.

So the question is, Giuseppe, if Barabbas was a polemic against Pauline/Marcionite Christianity, then why as you argued before is Barabbas a murderer? Wouldn't that be more fitting of Marcion's claim against the Jews? It's not a Marcionite polemic against the Jews, because it originally appeared in the Hebrew Gospel. So your ideas are backwards and you're too smug and self righteous to realize it.

How about Simon of Cyrene? You don't dare touch upon him because he represented the same concept as Barabbas, and we know he did because we have traditions and texts associated with it!

[davidmartin]

so the mythicist community is split into sects, just like the old days
what says you guys to this about Bar Abbas?

It may also be worth while to add to the statements of Papias already given, other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition. The residence of the Apostle Philip with his daughters in Hierapolis has been mentioned above. We must now point out how Papias, who lived at the same time, relates that he had received a wonderful narrative from the daughters of Philip. For he relates that a dead man was raised to life in his day. He also mentions another miracle relating to Justus, surnamed Barsabas, how he swallowed a deadly poison, and received no harm, on account of the grace of the Lord.

This got into Mark 16:18 "when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all"
See? I'm telling ya those girls were players

Note, the Apostle Philips daughters - source of some stories that got into the NT I would bet my balls on it, such as the slaying of the innocents in Matt, which ties in with the infancy gospels account of same church persecution. Were people like the Valentinians wrong to read mysteries into the gospels? No, not if the sources were folk like this who had the opportunity to encode double meanings into the information they gave. Everyone on here *knows* the gospels contain such information, now i'm giving you names for one of those sources.. you guys should have figured this out way before me!

[Giuseppe]

It's not a Marcionite polemic against the Jews, because it originally appeared in the Hebrew Gospel.

but what are you saying? Barabbas was not a Marcionite invention. Barabbas was interpolated in the first gospel (please choose you what was it) by the Judaizers who hated Marcion.

The sequence of events is the following:

• 1) a first gospel (without Barabbas)

• 2) hearsay about Christians who adored a Jesus Son of Father (not the Jewish Christ) and hated the bastard demiurge. They insisted that the crucified one was their Jesus, not the Jewish Christ son of YHWH

• 3) invention and interpolation of Barabbas to attack these Christians of point 2.

• 4) Marcion of Sinope appears and accepts passively Barabbas in the his gospel, etc...

• 5) some trace of Christians of point 2 survives in proto-John, where Jesus says: I and the Father are one.