The crucifixion as form of death derived from the baptism of the god Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
davidmartin
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Re: The crucifixion as form of death derived from the baptism of the god Jesus

Post by davidmartin » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:09 pm

There's no evidence at all the Ode refers to an Egyptian temple

It's not referring literally to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem either

The best translation by Lattke is
"A stream went forth and became a great and wide river
it flooded everything and shattered and carried it to the temple
and the restrains of men could not restrain it
not even the skills of those who restrain water"

'carried away the temple' is not accurate
Also the Coptic version says "and it turned toward the temple"

In the Ode the stream is the Spirit sent by God
It is crystal clear the Spirit of God meets resistance at the temple
This is a possible allusion to Jesus's problems with the Pharisee's there,
but the Pharisee's and Scribes, etc are surely those who restrain the water,
which fits perfectly with NT accounts of conflict
But it doesn't clearly say the temple is destroyed by this

It's possible to argue the temple still stands at the time the Ode was written

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7107
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The crucifixion as form of death derived from the baptism of the god Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:44 pm

davidmartin wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:09 pm
There's no evidence at all the Ode refers to an Egyptian temple

It's not referring literally to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem either

The best translation by Lattke is
"A stream went forth and became a great and wide river
it flooded everything and shattered and carried it to the temple
and the restrains of men could not restrain it
not even the skills of those who restrain water"

'carried away the temple' is not accurate
Why not? One of the most competent linguistic scholars of all time, J. Rendel Harris, prefers that translation; and he is not alone.

I mean, I myself have no idea. I just think it might be reckless to say that Harris and others are flat out wrong without giving a reason.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7107
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The crucifixion as form of death derived from the baptism of the god Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:54 pm

This is what Harris writes about this verse:

Harris on Odes 6.8.png
Harris on Odes 6.8.png (195.71 KiB) Viewed 3340 times

I have no horse in this race. Does Lattke comment on why Harris must be mistaken?
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

davidmartin
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Re: The crucifixion as form of death derived from the baptism of the god Jesus

Post by davidmartin » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:11 pm

Good point Ben, I'm just going by what Lattke says here, and he doesn't make it sound like there's a choice. Harris's translation was the first after all but closer analysis is now being done is how i understand it. Unless Lattke himself and the guy he quotes i've not heard of, are wrong on this? scholars do disagree i guess

For completeness here is what it says in his book:
"According to Emerton's detailed remarks on 8b it is most important to note that 'kol meddem' (everything) is "also the implied object of the second and third verbs (shattered/carried) and the 'l' prefixed to 'haykla' (temple) is not used "to introduce the direct object" but as the preposition "to"

For the Coptic Emerton notes the word "toward" is intended to describe the direction onto, to, over

I've just seen your follow up and you did what i just did for Lattke!! I'm not qualified to choose between these two

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7107
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The crucifixion as form of death derived from the baptism of the god Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:16 pm

davidmartin wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:11 pm
Good point Ben, I'm just going by what Lattke says here, and he doesn't make it sound like there's a choice. Harris's translation was the first after all but closer analysis is now being done is how i understand it. Unless Lattke himself and the guy he quotes i've not heard of, are wrong on this? scholars do disagree i guess
Yes, they do.
I've just seen your follow up and you did what i just did for Lattke!! I'm not qualified to choose between these two
Nor am I. :confusedsmiley: :cheers:
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

davidmartin
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Re: The crucifixion as form of death derived from the baptism of the god Jesus

Post by davidmartin » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:36 pm

Yes Lattke argues all the way through the original language is Greek against Aramaic! I'd love to hear the other side of that
From reading it as well you get the impression Syriac is a pretty vague language when it wants to be
But to me, that Ode just sounds like it's describing a flood carrying up broken stuff to the temple on the metaphysical tide of the Spirit, it may be polemical even.. i can imagine that 'flood water' containing deviants and opponents which i never thought of before...yakking away to the authorities and undermining the original community

Joseph D. L.
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: The crucifixion as form of death derived from the baptism of the god Jesus

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:56 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:05 am
The Christ Myth was a Jewish thing.

The Jesus Legend was a gentile Gnostic thing.
What's the difference? None, that's what.
You should like the difference between a Jewish hallucinator and a gentile euhemerizer.
So Lukuas and bar Kochba didn't exist or have an impact on Jewish/Christian thought?

Again, what's the difference? None.

P.S. I don't know no Secret Mark from Egypt, even less so a first gospel called such.
Mark is thought to have been in Egypt when he composed his Gospel, and "secret" Gospel.
If even a homosexual scholar was obliged to forge a gospel to justify his sexual preference, then even more so the early Christians were obliged to forge gospels and epistles to justify their beliefs.
Smith did forge Mar Saba, nor is there evidence that he was homosexual. You don't have any basis for anything you say.

Joseph D. L.
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: The crucifixion as form of death derived from the baptism of the god Jesus

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:57 pm

it is precisely the identity of death (as immersion/drowning in the infernal waters) that gives the resurrection to both the god and the followers of the god.
That's exactly what was believed in Egypt about Osiris you moron.

Giuseppe
Posts: 6602
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The crucifixion as form of death derived from the baptism of the god Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:56 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:57 pm
it is precisely the identity of death (as immersion/drowning in the infernal waters) that gives the resurrection to both the god and the followers of the god.
That's exactly what was believed in Egypt about Osiris you moron.
but I have derived it from the Jewish text Odes of Solomon not from Egypt. If you are unable to realize the qualitative difference in terms of evidence about Christian origins, then you can't be forgiven for your idiocies.

It seems that the your only knowledge of the matter is reduced to what a modern judaizer goes saying in this forum about a presumed imaginary ditheist (!) Marcion (as opposed to a real historical dualist Marcion) and to bullshit acharyan astrotheology, in addition to a strange and disturbing fixation on Bar-Kokhba and Cyrene. Vade retro.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 6602
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The crucifixion as form of death derived from the baptism of the god Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:49 am

The Death as immersion of the original Christ and the derived practice of baptism would explain why Christian texts insist so much on the theme of nakedness of Christ and of the Christians: an example among many, the Young Naked.

But naturally, all this written by me in this thread would have consistency if only the Odes of Salomon preceded Paul. And I doubt it.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Post Reply