Atwill vs Carotta

[ghost]

What are the main differences between these two ideas?

http://caesarsmessiah.com
http://www.carotta.de

[Roger Pearse]

Why not read through the links and tell us?

[Peter Kirby]

One of them can play chess.

[Roger Pearse]

Seriously - it would be useful to have a potted summary of each. I think Atwill has more media presence than Carotta.

Whatever happened to "Roman Piso" and "Abelard Reuchlin", who used to peddle some idea of this sort. "Roman" was a courteous guy, which was something.

[ghost]

Atwill says Jesus is Titus.

http://caesarsmessiah.com/blog/2011/05/ ... -typology/

[Charles Wilson]

Ghost-

There is a subtlety involved that is sometimes missed in a quick summary.
If I state that "Jesus was Titus", I might be asserting that "The Stories written about Titus in the Jewish War were rewritten into Stories that Symbolically - Typologically - were written about "Jesus" in the 30s". However, there is another System that also applies. Suppose I have "Jesus' - in the 30s - stating something similar to, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by Armies, with Siege Works in place, know that the MESSIAH is here. This generation shall not pass until these things are seen...".

This is telling us that Jesus is Prophesying that the Messiah will be found when these things are seen.

Luke 21: 20 and 27 - 28 and 31 and 36 (Moffatt):

[20] But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then be sure her desolation is not far away.
...
[27] and then shall be seen the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and glory
[28] But when you see these things begin to happen, look and raise your heads , for your deliverance is not far off."
...
[31] So, whenever you see all this happen, be sure the Reign of God is at hand.
...
[36] From hour to hour keep awake, praying that you may succeed in escaping all these dangers to come and in standing before the Son of man.

The only person who ever met that description was TITUS."
Atwill's Thesis is much more powerful than merely "Titus was Jesus".

CW

[Mental flatliner]

Ghost-

There is a subtlety involved that is sometimes missed in a quick summary.
If I state that "Jesus was Titus", I might be asserting that "The Stories written about Titus in the Jewish War were rewritten into Stories that Symbolically - Typologically - were written about "Jesus" in the 30s". However, there is another System that also applies. Suppose I have "Jesus' - in the 30s - stating something similar to, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by Armies, with Siege Works in place, know that the MESSIAH is here. This generation shall not pass until these things are seen...".

This is telling us that Jesus is Prophesying that the Messiah will be found when these things are seen.

Luke 21: 20 and 27 - 28 and 31 and 36 (Moffatt):

[20] But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then be sure her desolation is not far away.
...
[27] and then shall be seen the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and glory
[28] But when you see these things begin to happen, look and raise your heads , for your deliverance is not far off."
...
[31] So, whenever you see all this happen, be sure the Reign of God is at hand.
...
[36] From hour to hour keep awake, praying that you may succeed in escaping all these dangers to come and in standing before the Son of man.

The only person who ever met that description was TITUS."
Atwill's Thesis is much more powerful than merely "Titus was Jesus".

CW

Jerusalem was "surrounded by armies" countless times in history, and a few times during Jesus' lifetime (4 BC was the first time when Archaelaus put down the Passover riots).

There's nothing prophetic about this passage at all. An idiot could have said it would happen again.

But to claim that Titus and Jesus were the same person? (Wasn't Titus a member of a family that was violently anti-Semitic?)

[Charles Wilson]

*SIGH*

Roger Pearse: I may have an apology to make to you. I'm gonna finish this Post, dig up some of my kid's old Barney videos an curl up in front of the Tee Vee with a good bottle of Pepto-Bismol and some Thorazine. OK...Deep breath, now...Ready...GO!

Mental flatliner-

AS other Posters have mentioned, please read what was Posted, OK? By way of introduction I made a Post the other day and almost before I hit the "Post" button, some Snark, who OBVIOUSLY did not have time to read the Post, had Posted a L - O - N - G response that I needed to use Roman and non-Biblical Sources. I QUOTED POLYBIUS!!! Attention Peter Kirby: Mebbe your Site Privileges allow you to search ALL Posts. Could you see if ANYONE ELSE has ever quoted Polybius on this Site? ANY - FREEkin' - ONE?
I quoted Tacitus, used Moffatt's Translation for a purpose, that purpose being a note concerning "Naber's Conjecture" about the "The boat was undergirded with ropes...".

No matter. See, we are into the Era of Post-Cognitive Criticism. Hegel was a freaking Piker. Unbelievable.

On to your response: The point, MF was about Atwill's Book and that the Thesis has a SUBTLE TEXTURE to it. See, two of the Great Themes in Logical Thought in Western Civilization are "From the General to the Particular" and "From the Particular to the General". Given a "Jesus" in the 30s, what would he have said to look at and see in the coming years. He wasn't giving a Future History Lesson on "Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies uncountable times". Any point of the globe will ALWAYS be surrounded by armies. He was stating that "When YOU SEE...".

When you see:

1A.: Jerusalem surrounded by armies
1B.: If (1A) then ( Jerusalem's desolation is not far away), assuming "Her" => "Jerusalem"

2A.: If (1A and 1B) then (shall be seen the Son of man)
2B,: If (2A) then (also seen will be the Son of man) <=> {Attribute => (with power and glory)}

3.: If (1A and 1B AND 2A and 2B) then (Reign of God is at hand) <=> {Attribute => (Certainty)}

4. If {Attribute => (YOU)} => (You Watch) then (Stand before Son of man)

See? No mention of thousands of armies at all time surrounding Jerusalem.

Going Beyond the Data: "The only person who ever met that description was TITUS."

See, there was also Sol, who ran a Bagel Shop near the Temple who might have been referenced here by Luke but we lost all of his printed menus and we have no other records. MIGHT HAVE BEEN HIM THEY WAS TALKIN' ABOUT, I DUNNO. That's the problem with an infinite number of predicates: There is never a certainty that you have the object from the list of predicates!

A guy I met named Joe Atwill told me, "It's all just literature...". Maybe...maybe they weren't talking about ANYBODY OR ANYTHING!! Maybe it was all just a play for that new theater in Caesarea (Wait a minute...Where's that Galatians quote again?).

MF: Do yourself a favor. Read before attacking. Post-Cognitive Criticism is Bankrupt. Make sure that the point you are so eagerly trying to refute is actually the point being made by the Poster. Anything else is Tedium

THANK YOU, MF, FOR POSTING.

CW

[Mental flatliner]

MF: Do yourself a favor. Read before attacking. Post-Cognitive Criticism is Bankrupt. Make sure that the point you are so eagerly trying to refute is actually the point being made by the Poster. Anything else is Tedium

THANK YOU, MF, FOR POSTING.

CW

Thank you for your advice, but I fail to see the need to read ad nauseum when the premise is so ridiculous.

(That's what an "attack" looks like. My last post was nothing more than taking the OP as seriously as it deserved.)

It's the goal of all scholarship to raise standards (and to raise them upon reason and facts), not to subjugate the populace under a load of absolute crap.

[Charles Wilson]

BTW, I did a Search and found that there were some Good Scholars out there using a variety of Sources, including POLYBIUS.
Sometimes even a Rant will lead you to some good stuff

CW