More Proof Against Marcion was Rewritten More than Once

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More Proof Against Marcion was Rewritten More than Once

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:57 am

The opening words of Against Marcion (1.1) make clear there are three versions of the text of which the present surviving Latin work is the most recent. I've pointed out the clear signs the original work was written in Greek. There is also a relationship between Book 3 and Against the Jews which necessarily assumes the latter is more original. But now we are going to make note of arguments which clearly show Book 4 rewrote arguments which were more Marcionite or closer to Marcionism than previously realized. Let's cite one such argument at the very beginning of Book 4:
Every sentence, indeed the whole structure, arising from Marcion's impiety and profanity, I now (i.e. in Book 4 where these words appear) challenge in terms of that gospel which he has by manipulation made his own. Besides that, to work up credence for it (his gospel) he has contrived a sort of dowry, a work entitled Antitheses because of its juxtaposition of opposites, a work strained into making such a division between the Law and the Gospel as thereby to make two separate gods, opposite to each other, one belonging to one instrument (or, as it is more usual to say, testament), one to the other, and thus lend its patronage to faith in another gospel, that according to the Antitheses. Now I might have demolished those antitheses by a specially directed hand-to-hand attack, taking each of the statements of the man of Pontus one by one, except that it was much more convenient to refute them both in and along with that gospel which they serve: although it is perfectly easy to take action against them by counter-claim,1 even accepting them as admissible, accounting them valid, and alleging that they support my argument, that so they may be put to shame for the blindness of their author, having now become my antitheses against Marcion. So then I do admit that there was a different course followed in the old dispensation under the Creator, from that in the new dispensation under Christ. I do not deny a difference in records of things spoken, in precepts for good behaviour, and in rules of law, provided that all these differences have reference to one and the same God, that God by whom it is acknowledged that they were ordained and also foretold. Long ago did Isaiah proclaim that the law will go forth from Sion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem— another law, he means, and another word. In fact, he says, he will judge among the gentiles, and shall convict many people,a meaning not of the one nation of the Jews, but of the gentiles who by the new law of the gospel and the new word of the apostles are being judged and convicted in their own sight in respect of their ancient error, as soon as they have believed, and thereupon beat their swords into ploughshares, and their zibynae (which is a sort of hunting-spear) into pruning-hooks—that is, they are converting their formerly fierce and savage minds into honest thoughts productive of a good result. And again: Hearken to me, hearken to me, my people; and ye kings incline your ears to me: because a law will go forth from me, my judgement also for a light of the gentiles - that by which he had judged and decreed that the gentiles also should be enlightened by the law and word of the gospel. This will be the law also in David, an unassailable law, because it is perfect, converting the soul,c from idols unto God. This also will be the word, of which Isaiah says again, Because the Lord will make a decisive word upon the earth:d for the new testament is made very concise, and is disentangled from the intricate burdens of the law. What need of more, when more openly and more clearly than light itself the Creator by the same prophet foretells of the newness? Remember not the former things, neither consider ye the things of old: old things have passed away, new things are arising: behold, I make new things, which shall now arise.e Also by Jeremiah: Renew for your- selves a new fallow, and sow not among thorns, and be circumcised in the foreskin of your heart.f And in another place: Behold, the days will come, saith the Lord, when I will make for the house of Jacob and the house of Judah a new testament, not according to the testament which I ordained for their fathers in the day upon which I took to me the ordaining of them, so as to bring them out from the land of Egypt.g Thus he indicates that the original testament was temporary, since he declares it changeable, at the same time as he promises an eternal testamment for the future. For by Isaiah he says: Hearken to me and ye shall live, and I will ordain for you an eternal testament,h adding also the holy and faithful things of David, so as to point out that that testament would become current in Christ.
If you just read this opening statement in Against Marcion 4 the author is making the case that the gospel is compatible with the law and that Marcion - who was known for 'abrogating' or annulling the law - was way off base.

But then compare the first statement with Book 4 with a critical passage in Against the Jews (which as noted forms the basis for a large chunk of Book 3) it becomes clear that the original sentiments of the author might not be fairly represent in Book 4. Moreover this is a favorite passage of Irenaeus. We read:
This, therefore, was God's foresight,--that of giving circumcision to Israel, for a sign whence they might be distinguished when the time should arrive wherein their above-mentioned deserts should prohibit their admission into Jerusalem: which circumstance, because it was to be, used to be announced; and, because we see it accomplished, is recognised by us. [7] For, as the carnal circumcision, which was temporary, was in wrought for "a sign" in a contumacious people, so the spiritual has been given for salvation to an obedient people; while the prophet Jeremiah says, "Make a renewal for you, and sow not in thorns; be circumcised to God, and circumcise the foreskin of your heart: "45 and in another place he says, "Behold, days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will draw up, for the house of Judah and for the house of Jacob,46 a new testament; not such as I once gave their fathers in the day wherein I led them out from the land of Egypt." ... In short, the coming procession of a new law out of this "house of the God of Jacob" Isaiah in the ensuing words announces, saying, "For from Zion shall go out a law, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem, and shall judge among the nations,"--that is, among us, who have been called out of the nations,--"and they shall join to beat their glaives into ploughs, and their lances into sickles; and nations shall not take up glaive against nation, and they shall no more learn to fight." Who else, therefore, are understood but we, who, fully taught by the new law, observe these practices,--the old law being obliterated, the coming of whose abolition the action itself demonstrates? For the wont of the old law was to avenge itself by the vengeance of the glaive, and to pluck out "eye for eye," and to inflict retaliatory revenge for injury.53 But the new law's wont was to point to clemency, and to convert to tranquillity the pristine ferocity of "glaives" and "lances," and to remodel the pristine execution of "war" upon the rivals and foes of the law into the pacific actions of "ploughing" and "tilling" the land.54 [11] Therefore as we have shown above that the coming cessation of the old law and of the carnal circumcision was declared, so, too, the observance of the new law and the spiritual circumcision has shone out into the voluntary obediences55 of peace. For "a people," he says, "whom I knew not hath served me; in obedience of the ear it hath obeyed me."56 Prophets made the announcement. [12] But what is the "people" which was ignorant of God, but ours, who in days bygone knew not God? and who, in the hearing of the ear, gave heed to Him, but we, who, forsaking idols, have been converted to God? [13] For Israel--who had been known to God, and who had by Him been "upraised"57 in Egypt, and was transported through the Red Sea, and who in the desert, fed forty years with manna, was wrought to the semblance of eternity, and not contaminated with human passions,58 or fed on this world's59 meats, but fed on "angel's loaves"60 --the manna--and sufficiently bound to God by His benefits--forgot his Lord and God, saying to Aaron: "Make us gods, to go before us: for that Moses, who ejected us from the land of Egypt, hath quite forsaken us; and what hath befallen him we know not." And accordingly we, who "were not the people of God" in days bygone, have been made His people,61 by accepting the new law above mentioned, and the new circumcision before foretold.

Long ago did Isaiah proclaim that the law will go forth from Sion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem— another law, he means, and another word. In fact, he says, he will judge among the gentiles, and shall convict many people,a meaning not of the one nation of the Jews, but of the gentiles who by the new law of the gospel and the new word of the apostles are being judged and convicted in their own sight in respect of their ancient error, as soon as they have believed, and thereupon beat their swords into ploughshares, and their zibynae (which is a sort of hunting-spear) into pruning-hooks—that is, they are converting their formerly fierce and savage minds into honest thoughts productive of a good result. And again: Hearken to me, hearken to me, my people; and ye kings incline your ears to me: because a law will go forth from me, my judgement also for a light of the gentiles - that by which he had judged and decreed that the gentiles also should be enlightened by the law and word of the gospel. This will be the law also in David, an unassailable law, because it is perfect, converting the soul, from idols unto God. This also will be the word, of which Isaiah says again, Because the Lord will make a decisive word upon the earth:d for the new testament is made very concise, and is disentangled from the intricate burdens of the law. What need of more, when more openly and more clearly than light itself the Creator by the same prophet foretells of the newness? Remember not the former things, neither consider ye the things of old: old things have passed away, new things are arising: behold, I make new things, which shall now arise.e Also by Jeremiah: Renew for yourselves a new fallow, and sow not among thorns, and be circumcised in the foreskin of your heart.f And in another place: Behold, the days will come, saith the Lord, when I will make for the house of Jacob and the house of Judah a new testament, not according to the testament which I ordained for their fathers in the day upon which I took to me the ordaining of them, so as to bring them out from the land of Egypt. Thus he indicates that the original testament was temporary, since he declares it changeable, at the same time as he promises an eternal testamment for the future. For by Isaiah he says: Hearken to me and ye shall live, and I will ordain for you an eternal testament,h adding also the holy and faithful things of David, so as to point out that that testament would become current in Christ.
What I am struck by is the inherent 'Marcionism' in the original passage in Against the Jews which has been totally softened in the introduction to Against Marcion 4.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: More Proof Against Marcion was Rewritten More than Once

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:12 pm

The jumbling is important because I think the same thing occurred in the gospel and Pauline writings.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: More Proof Against Marcion was Rewritten More than Once

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:31 pm

Ecce venient dies, dicit dominus, et perficiam domui Iacob et domui Iudae testamentum novum, non secundum testamentum quod disposui patribus eorum in die qua arripui dispositionem eorum ad educendos eos de terra Aegypti. (Against Marcion)

Ecce enim dies veniunt, dicit dominus, et disponam domui Iudae et domui Iacob testamentum novum, non tale quale dedi patribus eorum in die quo eos eduxi de terra Aegypti (Against the Jews)
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: More Proof Against Marcion was Rewritten More than Once

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:30 pm

Here is what I think took place in the Against Marcion tradition.

1. the original material was directed against Jews not Marcionites.
2. at the very end of our collective material (preserved in both Against the Jews and Against Marcion 3) there was a discussion about the Jews expectation for another Christ beside Jesus. This section was reshaped into material which now is spread out over vast stretches of Book 3 of Against Marcion. I still can't fathom why a text written against the Jews was ultimately reworked against Marcion. But the critical germ for Book Four (the systematic line by line discussion of the gospel) begins with a section pulled out of the end of the original treatise.

Against the Jews:
Therefore, since the Jews still contend that the Christ is not yet come, whom we have in so many ways approved to be come, let the Jews recognise their own fate, --a fate which they were constantly foretold as destined to incur after the advent of the Christ, on account of the impiety with which they despised and slew Him. For first, from the day when, according to the saying of Isaiah, "a man cast forth his abominations of gold and silver, which they made to adore with vain and hurtful (rites),"307 --that is, ever since we Gentiles, with our breast doubly enlightened through Christ's truth, cast forth (let the Jews see it) our idols,--what follows has likewise been fulfilled. [25] For "the Lord of Sabaoth hath taken away, among the Jews from Jerusalem," among the other things named, "the wise architect" too,308 who builds the church, God's temple, and the holy city, and the house of the Lord. For thenceforth God's grace desisted (from working) among them. And "the clouds were commanded not to rain a shower upon the vineyard of Sorek,"309 --the clouds being celestial benefits, which were commanded not to be forthcoming to the house of Israel; [26] for it "had borne thorns"--whereof that house of Israel had wrought a crown for Christ--and not "righteousness, but a clamour,"--the clamour whereby it had extorted His surrender to the cross.310 And thus, the former gifts of grace being withdrawn, "the law and the prophets were until John,"311 and the fishpool of Bethsaida312 until the advent of Christ: thereafter it ceased curatively to remove from Israel infirmities of health; since, as the result of their perseverance in their frenzy, the name of the Lord was through them blasphemed, as it is written: "On your account the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles: "313 for it is from them that the infamy (attached to that name) began, and (was propagated during) the interval from Tiberius to Vespasian. And because they had committed these crimes, and had failed to understand that Christ "was to be found"314 in "the time of their visitation,"315 their land has been made "desert, and their cities utterly burnt with fire, while strangers devour their region in their sight: the daughter of Sion is derelict, as a watch-tower in a vineyard, or as a shed in a cucumber garden,"--ever since the time, to wit, when "Israel knew not" the Lord, and "the People understood Him not; "but rather "quite forsook, and provoked unto indignation, the Holy One of Israel."316 [27] So, again, we find a conditional threat of the sword: "If ye shall have been unwilling, and shall not have been obedient, the glaive shall eat you up."317 Whence we prove that the sword was Christ, by not hearing whom they perished; who, again, in the Psalm, demands of the Father their dispersion, saying, "Disperse them in Thy power; "318 who, withal, again through Isaiah prays for their utter burning. "On My account," He says, "have these things happened to you; in anxiety shall ye sleep."319 Since, therefore, the Jews were predicted as destined to suffer these calamities on Christ's account, and we find that they have suffered them, and see them sent into dispersion and abiding in it, manifest it is that it is on Christ's account that these things have befallen the Jews, the sense of the Scriptures harmonizing with the issue of events and of the order of the times. [29] Or else, if Christ is not yet come, on whose account they were predicted as destined thus to suffer, when He shall have come it follows that they will thus suffer. And where will then be a daughter of Sion to be derelict, who now has no existence? where the cities to be exust, which are already exust and in heaps? where the dispersion of a race which is now in exile? Restore to Judea the condition which Christ is to find; and (then, if you will), contend that some other (Christ) is coming.
Against Marcion 3
So you cannot get out of this notion of yours a basis for your difference between the two Christs, as if the Jewish Christ were ordained by the Creator for the restoration of the people alone from its dispersion, whilst yours was appointed by the supremely good God for the liberation of the whole human race. Because, after all, the earliest Christians are found on the side of the Creator, not of Marcion,300 all nations being called to His kingdom, from the fact that God set up that kingdom from the tree (of the cross), when no Cerdon was yet born, much less a Marcion. [2] However, when you are refuted on the call of the nations, you betake yourself to proselytes. You ask, who among the nations can turn to the Creator, when those whom the prophet names are proselytes of individually different and private condition?301 "Behold," says Isaiah, "the proselytes shall come unto me through Thee," showing that they were even proselytes who were to find their way to God through Christ. But nations (Gentiles) also, like ourselves, had likewise their mention (by the prophet) as trusting in Christ. "And in His name," says he, "shall the Gentiles trust." [3] Besides, the proselytes whom you substitute for the nations in prophecy, are not in the habit of trusting in Christ's name, but in the dispensation of Moses, from whom comes their instruction. But it was in the last days that the choice302 of the nations had its commencement.303 In these very words Isaiah says: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord," that is, God's eminence, "and the house of God," that is, Christ, the Catholic temple of God, in which God is worshipped, "shall be established upon the mountains," over all the eminences of virtues and powers; "and all nations shall come unto it; and many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us His way, and we will walk in it: for out of Sion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."304 The gospel will be this "way," of the new law and the new word in Christ, no longer in Moses. "And He shall judge among the nations," even concerning their error. "And these shall rebuke a large nation," that of the Jews themselves and their proselytes. "And they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears305 into pruning-hooks; " in other words, they shall change into pursuits of moderation and peace the dispositions of injurious minds, and hostile tongues, and all kinds of evil, and blasphemy. "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,"shall not stir up discord. "Neither shall they learn war any more,"306 that is, the provocation of hostilities; so that you here learn that Christ is promised not as powerful in war, but pursuing peace. [4] Now you must deny either that these things were predicted, although they are plainly seen, or that they have been accomplished, although you read of them; else, if you cannot deny either one fact or the other, they must have been accomplished in Him of whom they were predicted. For look at the entire course of His call up to the present time from its beginning, how it is addressed to the nations (Gentiles) who are in these last days approaching to God the Creator, and not to proselytes, whose election307 was rather an event of the earliest days. Verily the apostles have annulled308 that belief of yours.

[1] You have the work of the apostles also predicted: "How beautiful are the feet of them which preach the gospel of peace, which bring good tidings of good,"309 not of war nor evil tidings. In response to which is the psalm, "Their sound is gone through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world; "310 that is, the words of them who carry round about the law that proceeded from Sion and the Lord's word from Jerusalem, in order that that might come to pass which was written: "They who were far from my righteousness, have come near to my righteousness and truth."311 [2] When the apostles girded their loins for this business, they renounced the elders and rulers and priests of the Jews. Well, says he, but was it not above all things that they might preach the other god? Rather312 (that they might preach) that very self-same God, whose scripture they were with all their might fulfilling! "Depart ye, depart ye," exclaims Isaiah; "go ye out from thence, and touch not the unclean thing," that is blasphemy against Christ; "Go ye out of the midst of her," even of the synagogue, "Be ye separate who bear the vessels of the Lord."313 [3] For already had the Lord, according to the preceding words (of the prophet), revealed His Holy One with His arm, that is to say, Christ by His mighty power, in the eyes of the nations, so that all the314 nations and the utmost parts of the earth have seen the salvation, which was from God. By thus departing from Judaism itself, when they exchanged the obligations and burdens of the law for the liberty of the gospel, they were fulfilling the psalm, "Let us burst their bonds asunder, and cast away their yoke from us; "and this indeed (they did) after that "the heathen raged, and the people imagined vain devices; "after that "the kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers took their counsel together against the Lord, and against His Christ."315 [4] What did the apostles thereupon suffer? You answer: Every sort of iniquitous persecutions, from men that belonged indeed to that Creator who was the adversary of Him whom they were preaching. Then why does the Creator, if an adversary of Christ, not only predict that the apostles should incur this suffering, but even express His displeasure316 thereat? [5] For He ought neither to predict the course of the other god, whom, as you contend, He knew not, nor to have expressed displeasure at that which He had taken care to bring about. "See how the righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and how merciful men are taken away, and no man considereth. For the righteous man has been removed from the evil person."317 Who is this but Christ? "Come, say they, let us take away the righteous, because He is not for our turn, (and He is clean contrary to our doings)."318 Premising, therefore, and likewise subjoining the fact that Christ suffered, He foretold that His just ones should suffer equally with Him--both the apostles and all the faithful in succession; and He signed them with that very seal of which Ezekiel spake: "The Lord said unto me, Go through the gate, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set the mark tau upon the foreheads of the men."319 [6] Now the Greek letter tau and our own letter T is the very form of the cross, which He predicted would be the sign on our foreheads in the true Catholic Jerusalem,320 in which, according to the twenty-first Psalm, the brethren of Christ or children of God would ascribe glory to God the Father, in the person of Christ Himself addressing His Father; "I will declare Thy name unto my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I sing praise unto Thee." For that which had to come to pass in our day in His name, and by His Spirit, He rightly foretold would be of Him. And a little afterwards He says: "My praise shall be of Thee in the great congregation."321 In the sixty-seventh Psalm He says again: "In the congregations bless ye the Lord God."322 So that with this agrees also the prophecy of Malachi: "I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord; neither will I accept your offerings: for from the rising of the sun, even unto the going down of the same, my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place sacrifice shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering"323 --such as the ascription of glory, and blessing, and praise, and hymns. [7] Now, inasmuch as all these things are also found amongst you, and the sign upon the forehead,324 and the sacraments of the church, and the offerings of the pure sacrifice, you ought now to burst forth, and declare that the Spirit of the Creator prophesied of your Christ.

[1] Now, since you join the Jews in denying that their Christ has come, recollect also what is that end which they were predicted as about to bring on themselves after the time of Christ, for the impiety wherewith they both rejected and slew Him. For it began to come to pass from that day, when, according to Isaiah, "a man threw away his idols of gold and of silver, which they made into useless and hurtful objects of worship; "325 in other words, from the time when he threw away his idols after the truth had been made clear by Christ. Consider whether what follows in the prophet has not received its fulfilment: [2] "The Lord of hosts hath taken away from Judah and from Jerusalem, amongst other things, both the prophet and the wise artificer; "326 that is, His Holy Spirit, who builds the church, which is indeed the temple, and household and city of God. For thenceforth God's grace failed amongst them; and "the clouds were commanded to rain no rain upon the vineyard" of Sorech; to withhold, that is, the graces of heaven, that they shed no blessing upon "the house of Israel," [3] which had but produced "the thorns" wherewith it had crowned the Lord, and "instead of righteousness, the cry" wherewith it had hurried Him away to the cross.327 And so in this manner the law and the prophets were until John, but the dews of divine grace were withdrawn from the nation. After his time their madness still continued, and the name of the Lord was blasphemed by them, as saith the Scripture: "Because of you my name is continually blasphemed amongst the nations"328 (for from them did the blasphemy originate); neither in the interval from Tiberius to Vespasian did they learn repentance.329 Therefore "has their land become desolate, their cities are burnt with fire, their country strangers are devouring before their own eyes; the daughter of Sion has been deserted like a cottage in a vineyard, or a lodge in a garden of cucumbers,"330 ever since the time when "Israel acknowledged not the Lord, and the people understood Him not, but forsook Him, and provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger."331 [4] So likewise that conditional threat of the sword, "If ye refuse and hear me not, the sword shall devour you,"332 has proved that it was Christ, for rebellion against whom they have perished. In the fifty-eighth Psalm He demands of the Father their dispersion: "Scatter them in Thy power."333 By Isaiah He also says, as He finishes a prophecy of their consumption by fire:334 "Because of me has this happened to you; ye shall lie down in sorrow."335 [5] But all this would be unmeaning enough, if they suffered this retribution not on account of Him, who had in prophecy assigned their suffering to His own cause, but for the sake of the Christ of the other god. Well, then, although you affirm that it is the Christ of the other god who was driven to the cross by the powers and authorities of the Creator, as it were by hostile beings, still I have to say, See how manifestly He was defended336 by the Creator: there were given to Him both "the wicked for His burial," even those who had strenuously maintained that His corpse had been stolen, "and the rich for His death,"337 even those who had redeemed Him from the treachery of Judas, as well as from the lying report of the soldiers that His body had been taken away. [6] Therefore these things either did not happen to the Jews on His account, in which case you will be refuted by the sense of the Scriptures tallying with the issue of the facts and the order of the times, or else they did happen on His account, and then the Creator could not have inflicted the vengeance except for His own Christ; nay, He must have rather had a reward for Judas, if it had been his master's enemy whom they put to death. At all events,338 if the Creator's Christ has not come yet, on whose account the prophecy dooms them to such sufferings, they will have to endure the sufferings when He shall have come. Then where will there be a daughter of Sion to be reduced to desolation, for there is none now to be found? [7] Where will there be cities to be burnt with fire, for they are now in heaps?339 Where a nation to be dispersed, which is already in banishment? Restore to Judaea its former state, that the Creator's Christ may find it, and then you may contend that another Christ has come. But then, again,340 how is it that He can have permitted to range through341 His own heaven one whom He was some day to put to death on His own earth, after the more noble and glorious region of His kingdom had been violated, and His own very palace and sublimest height had been trodden by him? Or was it only in appearance rather that he did this?342 God is no doubt343 a jealous God! Yet he gained the victory. You should blush with shame, who put your faith in a vanquished god! What have you to hope for from him, who was not strong enough to protect himself? For it was either through his infirmity that he was crushed by the powers and human agents of the Creator, or else through maliciousness, in order that he might fasten so great a stigma on them by his endurance of their wickedness.
Notice how an argument originally made against the Jews in Against the Jews:
Therefore, since the Jews still contend that the Christ is not yet come, whom we have in so many ways approved to be come, let the Jews recognise their own fate, --a fate which they were constantly foretold as destined to incur after the advent of the Christ, on account of the impiety with which they despised and slew Him.
gets completely twisted into a stock attack on the Marcionites:
So you cannot get out of this notion of yours a basis for your difference between the two Christs, as if the Jewish Christ were ordained by the Creator for the restoration of the people alone from its dispersion, whilst yours was appointed by the supremely good God for the liberation of the whole human race. Because, after all, the earliest Christians are found on the side of the Creator, not of Marcion,300 all nations being called to His kingdom, from the fact that God set up that kingdom from the tree (of the cross), when no Cerdon was yet born, much less a Marcion. However, when you are refuted on the call of the nations, you betake yourself to proselytes. You ask, who among the nations can turn to the Creator, when those whom the prophet names are proselytes of individually different and private condition?
The handwriting of Irenaeus is everywhere. The connection with Cerdon especially. But notice even the association between Marcionism and proselytes in Against Marcion 3. The next line in this text reads:
"Behold," says Isaiah, "the proselytes shall come unto me through Thee," showing that they were even proselytes who were to find their way to God through Christ. But nations (Gentiles) also, like ourselves, had likewise their mention (by the prophet) as trusting in Christ. "And in His name," says he, "shall the Gentiles trust." [3] Besides, the proselytes whom you substitute for the nations in prophecy, are not in the habit of trusting in Christ's name, but in the dispensation of Moses, from whom comes their instruction.
If we go back to Against the Jews the prophesy is cited but in the same section with the allusion to Isaiah 2:3 -
Whence we discern that the temporal sabbath is human, and the eternal sabbath is accounted divine; concerning which He predicts through Isaiah: "And there shall be," He says, "month after month, and day after day, and sabbath after sabbath; and all flesh shall come to adore in Jerusalem, saith the Lord; "66 [4] which we understand to have been fulfilled in the times of Christ, when "all flesh"--that is, every nation--"came to adore in Jerusalem" God the Father, through Jesus Christ His Son, as was predicted through the prophet: "Behold, proselytes through me shall go unto Thee."
Again the differences can't be more striking. In the ur-text "Behold the proselyte" is one of many signs that the author sees that 'prophesy' knew that Judaism would end and its proselytes would come over to Christianity - even Marcionite Christianity. That the original author was a Marcionite explains why the line doesn't appear in its original context but is turned around against Marcion. Again:
"Behold," says Isaiah, "the proselytes shall come unto me through Thee," showing that they were even proselytes who were to find their way to God through Christ. But nations (Gentiles) also, like ourselves, had likewise their mention (by the prophet) as trusting in Christ. "And in His name," says he, "shall the Gentiles trust." [3] Besides, the proselytes whom you substitute for the nations in prophecy, are not in the habit of trusting in Christ's name, but in the dispensation of Moses, from whom comes their instruction
What I am suggesting is that the second author is wrestling with the arguments of the original author. The original author chooses Isaiah 11:10 as proof that the end times have come, the end of Judaism and new Law has been summoned to replace it. The second author rejects his arguments - as if they were Marcion's - and corrects them saying that Isaiah really prophesied the coming of Christ to the Gentiles not the proselytes.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: More Proof Against Marcion was Rewritten More than Once

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:01 pm

We find the reference to Isaiah 2:3 that forms the introduction to Book 4 of Against Marcion In what immediately follows in Against Marcion 3:
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord," that is, God's eminence, "and the house of God," that is, Christ, the Catholic temple of God, in which God is worshipped, "shall be established upon the mountains," over all the eminences of virtues and powers; "and all nations shall come unto it; and many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us His way, and we will walk in it: for out of Sion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."304 The gospel will be this "way," of the new law and the new word in Christ, no longer in Moses. "And He shall judge among the nations," even concerning their error. "And these shall rebuke a large nation," that of the Jews themselves and their proselytes. "And they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears305 into pruning-hooks; " in other words, they shall change into pursuits of moderation and peace the dispositions of injurious minds, and hostile tongues, and all kinds of evil, and blasphemy. "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,"shall not stir up discord. "Neither shall they learn war any more,"306 that is, the provocation of hostilities; so that you here learn that Christ is promised not as powerful in war, but pursuing peace. [4] Now you must deny either that these things were predicted, although they are plainly seen, or that they have been accomplished, although you read of them; else, if you cannot deny either one fact or the other, they must have been accomplished in Him of whom they were predicted. For look at the entire course of His call up to the present time from its beginning, how it is addressed to the nations (Gentiles) who are in these last days approaching to God the Creator, and not to proselytes, whose election307 was rather an event of the earliest days. Verily the apostles have annulled308 that belief of yours.
The same section has been moved to the beginning of Against the Jews. But notice here that through it all the original material is couched in an attack on the original author's belief that Isaiah was prophesying that the gospel would be delivered to the proselytes.
This, therefore, was God's foresight,--that of giving circumcision to Israel, for a sign whence they might be distinguished when the time should arrive wherein their above-mentioned deserts should prohibit their admission into Jerusalem: which circumstance, because it was to be, used to be announced; and, because we see it accomplished, is recognised by us. [7] For, as the carnal circumcision, which was temporary, was in wrought for "a sign" in a contumacious people, so the spiritual has been given for salvation to an obedient people; while the prophet Jeremiah says, "Make a renewal for you, and sow not in thorns; be circumcised to God, and circumcise the foreskin of your heart: "45 and in another place he says, "Behold, days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will draw up, for the house of Judah and for the house of Jacob,46 a new testament; not such as I once gave their fathers in the day wherein I led them out from the land of Egypt." ... In short, the coming procession of a new law out of this "house of the God of Jacob" Isaiah in the ensuing words announces, saying, "For from Zion shall go out a law, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem, and shall judge among the nations,"--that is, among us, who have been called out of the nations,--"and they shall join to beat their glaives into ploughs, and their lances into sickles; and nations shall not take up glaive against nation, and they shall no more learn to fight."
In my opinion then the original argument made the case that 'the proselytes' were somehow connected with a rejection of circumcision.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

davidmartin
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Re: More Proof Against Marcion was Rewritten More than Once

Post by davidmartin » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:46 pm

so you want you some Marcion, how about let the guy speak for himself?
O wonder beyond wonders, rapture, power, and amazement is it, that one can say nothing at all about the gospel, nor even conceive of it, nor compare it with anything
Quote apparently comes from a writer called Harnak from an old syriac manuscript, couldn't find out more

Sounds like
a) He mixes up a new brew where instead of Jesus or God being unknown it is the Gospel itself
b) He's riffing on the Paul/Thomas (early church) saying about 'eye has not seen or heard/no human mind has conceived what God has prepared'
c) He's riffing also on the Gnostic (unspeakableness, incomparableness of God to anything) as found in Apoc. John and Eugnostos the blessed)
d) He's ecstatic like Montanists (is Montanism an offshoot?) and charismatic
e) His use/propagation of Paul and his Gospel+Luke (or whatever it was) could be seen as necessary tools and not central to his movement - so he has no worries about editing these as he's got a complete gospel package underpinned by his emphasis on a brand new revelation previously unknown that's experienced so philosophical meanderings and scripture are a wasting his time, he makes cuts, and wants the church leaders to clear off who think differently

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Re: More Proof Against Marcion was Rewritten More than Once

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:17 pm

davidmartin wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:46 pm
He's riffing on the Paul/Thomas (early church) saying about 'eye has not seen or heard/no human mind has conceived what God has prepared'
As a matter of interest, the following is my collection of instances — by no means complete! — of this saying. The instance from pseudo-Philo, especially, makes it less than obvious to me that the saying originated with Christians:

Plutarch, How the Young Person Should Study Poetry 17e: 17e And let these [words] of Empedocles be at hand: "Thus these things are not to be seen by men, nor heard, nor comprehended with the mind." / 17e Καὶ τὰ Ἐμπεδοκλέους ἔστω πρόχειρα ταυτί· Οὕτως οὔτ´ ἐπιδερκτὰ τάδ´ ἀνδράσιν οὔτ´ ἐπακουστὰ οὔτε νόῳ περιληπτά.

Pseudo-Philo, Biblical Antiquities 26.13: 13 And it shall be when the sins of my people are filled up, and their enemies have the mastery over their house, that I will take these stones and the former together with the tables, and lay them up in the place whence they were brought forth in the beginning, and they shall be there until I remember the world, and visit the dwellers upon earth. And then will I take them and many other better than they from that place which eye has not seen nor ear heard, and has not come up into the heart of man, until the like come to pass in the age [quod oculus non vidit nec auris audivit, et in cor hominis non ascendit, quousque tale aliquid fieret in seculum], and the just shall have no need for the light of the sun nor of the shining of the moon, for the light of the precious stones shall be their light.

1 Corinthians 2.9: 9 "Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not come into the heart of man, which things God has prepared for those who love him." / 9 ἃ ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδεν καὶ οὗς οὐκ ἤκουσεν, καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἀνέβη, ἃ ἡτοίμασεν ὁ θεὸς τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν αὐτόν.

1 Clement 34.8: 8 For the Scripture says, "Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which He has prepared for them that wait for Him." / 8 λέγει γάρ, Ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδεν καὶ οὖς οὐκ ἤκουσεν καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἀνέβη ὅσα ἠτοίμασεν κύριος τοῖς ὑπομένουσιν αὐτόν.

2 Clement 11.7: 7 If, therefore, we shall do righteousness in the sight of God, we shall enter into His kingdom, and shall receive the promises, "which ear has not heard, nor eye seen, neither have entered into the heart of man." / 7 ἐὰν οὗν ποιήσωμεν τὴν δικαιοσύνην ἐναντίον τοῦ θεοῦ εἰσήξομεν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτοῦ καὶ ληψόμεθα τὰς ἐπαγγελίας ἃς οὖς οὐκ ἤκουσεν, οὐδὲ ὀφθαλμὸς εἶδεν, οὐδὲ ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου ἀνέβη.

Martyrdom of Polycarp 2.3: 3 And, looking to the grace of Christ, they despised all the torments of this world, redeeming themselves from eternal punishment by the suffering of a single hour. For this reason the fire of their savage executioners appeared cool to them. For they kept before their view escape from that fire which is eternal and never shall be quenched, and looked forward with the eyes of their heart to those good things which are laid up for such as endure; things "which ear has not heard, nor eye seen, neither have entered into the heart of man," but were revealed by the Lord to them, inasmuch as they were no longer men, but had already become angels. / 3 καὶ προσέχοντες τῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ χάριτι τῶν κοσμικῶν κατεφρόνουν βασάνων διὰ μιᾶς ὥρας τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν ἐξαγοραζόμενοι καὶ τὸ πῦρ ἦν αὐτοῖς ψυχρὸν τὸ τῶν ἀπανθρώπων βασανιστῶν πρὸ ὀφθαλμῶν γὰρ εἶχον φυγεῖν τὸ αἰώνιον καὶ μηδέποτε σβεννύμενον καὶ τοῖς τῆς καρδίας ὀφθαλμοῖς ἀνέβλεπον τὰ τηρούμενα οὔτε ὀφθαλμὸς εἶδεν οὔτε ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου ἀνέβη ἐκείνοις δὲ ὑπεδείκνυτο ὑπὸ τοῦ κυρίου οἵπερ μηκέτι ἄνθρωποι ἀλλ᾽ ἤδη ἄγγελοι ἦσαν.

Thomas 17: 17 Jesus said, "I shall give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never occurred to the human mind." [Link.]

Apocalypse of Peter 6-7: 6 And as we prayed, suddenly there appeared two men standing before the Lord towards the East, on whom we were not able to look; 7 for there came forth from their countenance a ray as of the sun, and their raiment was shining, such as eye of man never saw; for no mouth is able to express or heart to conceive the glory with which they were endued, and the beauty of their appearance.

Ascension of Isaiah 11.34 (Latin & Slavonic): 34 He said to me, "It is enough for you, Isaiah. For you have seen that which no other son of flesh has seen, which neither eye has seen nor ear has heard, nor has ascended into the heart of man, as many things as God has prepared for all those who love him. / 34 qui dixit mihi, «Sufficit tibi, Ysaia. vidisti enim quod nemo alius vidit carnis filius, quod nec oculus vidit nec auris audivit, nec in cor hominis ascendit, quanta preparavit Deus omnibus diligentibus se.»

Testament of Jacob 8.8: 8 And he showed me all the resting places and all the good things prepared for the righteous, and the things that eye has not seen nor ear heard, and have not come into the heart of men, that God has prepared for those who love him and do his will on earth (for, if they end well, they do his will).

Apostolic Constitutions 7.32: 32 ...κληρονομοῦντες ἐκεῖνα, ἃ ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδεν καὶ οὖς οὐκ ἤκουσεν καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἀνέβη, ἃ ἡτοίμασεν ὁ Θεὸς τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν αὐτόν....

Talmud, Sanhedrin 99a: 99a .... Rabbi Hiyya ben Abba said in Rabbi Johanan's name, "All the prophets prophesied [all the good things] only in respect of the Messianic era; but as for the world to come, 'The eye has not seen, O Lord, beside you, what he has prepared for him who waits for him.'" Now, he disagrees with Samuel, who said, "This world differs from [that of] the days of the Messiah only in respect of servitude to [foreign] powers." ....

Talmud, Berachoth 34b: 34b .... R. Hiyya b. Abba also said in the name of R. Johanan: "All the prophets prophesied only for the days of the Messiah, but as for the world to come, 'Eye hath not seen, oh God, beside Thee.' These Rabbis differ from Samuel; for Samuel said, 'There is no difference between this world and the days of the Messiah except [that in the latter there will be no] bondage of foreign powers, as it says, "For the poor shall never cease out of the land."'" ....

Gregory of Nyssa, Catechetical Oration 40: ἀναγκαῖον ἂν εἴη τούτοις προσθεῖναι καὶ τὸ λειπόμενον, ὅτι οὔτε τὰ ἀγαθὰ τὰ ἐν ἐπαγγελίαις τοῖς εὖ βεβιωκόσι προκείμενα τοιαῦτά ἐστιν ὡς εἰς ὑπογραφὴν λόγου ἐλθεῖν. πῶς γὰρ ἃ οὔτε ὀφθαλμὸς εἶδεν, οὔτε οὖς ἤκουσεν, οὔτε ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου ἀνέβη; οὔτε μὴν ἡ ἀλγεινὴ τῶν πεπλημμεληκότων ζωὴ πρός τι τῶν τῇδε λυπούντων τὴν αἴσθησιν ὁμοτίμως ἔχει. ἀλλὰ κἂν ἐπονομασθῇ τι τῶν ἐκεῖ κολαστηρίων τοῖς ὧδε γνωριζομένοις ὀνόμασιν, οὐκ ἐν ὀλίγῳ τὴν παραλλαγὴν ἔχει. πῦρ γὰρ ἀκούων ἄλλο τι παρὰ τοῦτο νοεῖν ἐδιδάχθης ἐκ τοῦ προσκεῖσθαί τι τῷ πυρὶ ἐκείνῳ ὃ ἐν τούτῳ οὐκ ἔστι· τὸ μὲν γὰρ οὐ σβέννυται, τούτου δὲ πολλὰ παρὰ τῆς πείρας ἐξεύρηται τὰ σβεστήρια, πολλὴ δὲ τοῦ σβεννυμένου πρὸς τὸ μὴ παραδεχόμενον σβέσιν ἡ διαφορά. οὐκοῦν ἄλλο τι, καὶ οὐχὶ τοῦτό ἐστι. πάλιν σκώληκά τις ἀκούσας μὴ διὰ τῆς ὁμωνυμίας πρὸς τὸ ἐπίγειον τοῦτο θηρίον ἀποφερέσθω τῇ διανοίᾳ· ἡ γὰρ προσθήκη τοῦ ἀτελεύτητον εἶναι ἄλλην τινὰ φύσιν παρὰ τὴν γινωσκομένην νοεῖν ὑποτίθεται. ἐπεὶ οὖν ταῦτα πρόκειται τῇ ἐλπίδι τοῦ μετὰ ταῦτα βίου, καταλλήλως ἐκ τῆς ἑκάστου προαιρέσεως κατὰ τὴν δικαίαν τοῦ θεοῦ κρίσιν ἀναφυόμενα τῷ βίῳ, σωφρονούντων ἂν εἴη μὴ πρὸς τὸ παρὸν ἀλλὰ πρὸς τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο βλέπειν, καὶ τῆς ἀφράστου μακαριότητος ἐν τῇ ὀλίγῃ ταύτῃ καὶ προσκαίρῳ ζωῇ τὰς ἀφορμὰς καταβάλλεσθαι καὶ τῆς τῶν κακῶν πείρας δι' ἀγαθῆς προαιρέσεως ἀλλοτριοῦσθαι, νῦν μὲν κατὰ τὸν βίον, μετὰ ταῦτα δὲ κατὰ τὴν αἰωνίαν ἀντίδοσιν. / It will be necessary to add to what has been said this remaining statement also; viz. that those good things which are held out in the Gospels to those who have led a godly life, are not such as can be precisely described. For how is that possible with things which “eye hath not seen, neither ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man?” Indeed, the sinner’s life of torment presents no equivalent to anything that pains the sense here. Even if some one of the punishments in that other world be named in terms that are well known here, the distinction is still not small. When you hear the word fire, you have been taught to think of a fire other than the fire we see, owing to something being added to that fire which in this there is not; for that fire is never quenched, whereas experience has discovered many ways of quenching this; and there is a great difference between a fire which can be extinguished, and one that does not admit of extinction. That fire, therefore, is something other than this. If, gain, a person hears the word “worm,” let not his thoughts, from the similarity of the term, be carried to the creature here that crawls upon the ground; for the addition that it “dieth not” suggests the thought of another reptile than that known here. Since, then, these things are set before us as to be expected in the life that follows this, being the natural outgrowth according to the righteous judgment of God, in the life of each, of his particular disposition, it must be the part of the wise not to regard the present, but that which follows after, and to lay down the foundations for that unspeakable blessedness during this short and fleeting life, and by a good choice to wean themselves from all experience of evil, now in their lifetime here, hereafter in their eternal recompense.

Epiphanius, Panarion 64.69.10: How can a thing be anything but "honored," when it is raised, abides forever, and obtains a kingdom in heaven by its hope in God’s lovingkindness — where "the righteous" shall shine "as the sun," where they shall be "equal to the angels," where they shall dance with the bridegroom, where Peter and the apostles "shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel," where the righteous shall receive "what eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither has entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him" [ὅπου λήψονται οἱ δίκαιοι «ἃ ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδε καὶ οὖς οὐκ ἤκουσε καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἀνέβη, ἃ ἡτοίμασεν ὁ θεὸς τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν αὐτόν»]?

Epiphanius, Panarion 66.38.1-4: 1 For if there were no resurrection of bodies, how could there be "gnashing of teeth?" And don’t anyone make that halfwitted remark again, "Teeth are made for us to chew with; what food will we eat after the resurrection of the dead?" 2 If Jesus ate again after his resurrection, and [took] "a piece of a broiled fish and an honeycomb," and lived with his disciples for forty days, will there be no food? 3 And as to food, it is plain that "Blessed is he who shall eat bread in the kingdom of heaven." And it is the Lord’s own promise that "You shall be seated at my Father’s table eating and drinking." 4 And what this eating and drinking is, is known to him alone, for "eye has not seen nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him" [ἃ ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδε καὶ οὖς οὐκ ἤκουσεν, οὔτε ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου ἀνέβη, ὅσα ἡτοίμασεν ὁ θεὸς τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν αὐτόν].

Epiphanius, Panarion 66.61.8-9: 8 But when these prophets prophesy, they prophesy in part and know in part but with hope await what is perfect in the ages to come, "when the corruptible is changed to incorruption and the mortal to immortality." For "<when this mortal shall have put on immortality,> then shall we see face to face." 9 For now these things are shown to us "darkly," but there "what eye has not seen here" is prepared [ἑτοιμάζεται ἃ ὀφθαλμὸς ὧδε οὐκ εἶδεν]. There perfection is revealed, those things that "ear has not heard" here [ἃ οὖς ἐνταῦθα οὐκ ἤκουσεν]. There is the greatest gift to the saints, that which "hath not entered into the heart of man" here [ὃ ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἀνέβη ἐνταῦθα].

Epiphanius, Panarion 77.37.57; 77.38.1: 37.5 What becomes of the words of the apostle, "If ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing," and, "All ye that are justified by the Law are fallen from grace?" What about the Lord’s words, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are equal unto the angels?" 6 On the other hand, "You shall sit at the table <of the kingdom> of my Father eating and drinking," and, "when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of heaven," with the additional word, "new," and the phrase, "at the table of the kingdom," mean something different. 7 I myself agree with this, since I have learned from the sacred scriptures that there is a partaking of immortal food and drink. Of these it is said, "Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have entered into the heart of man what things God has prepared for them that love him." 38.1 Apollinarius, though, says that we partake of the material pleasures first, in the millennium, without labor and grief, but that after the millennium we partake of the things of which "eye hath not seen and ear hath not heard" was said.

Pseudo-Athanasius, On Virginity 18: 18 .... καὶ ὥσπερ τις ἀπὸ φυλακῆς ἐξέλθοι, οὕτως καὶ οἱ ἅγιοι ἐξέρχονται ἀπὸ τοῦ μοχθηροῦ βίου τούτου εἰς τὰ ἀγαθὰ τὰ ἡτοιμασμένα αὐτοῖς· «ἃ ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδε καὶ οὖς οὐκ ἤκουσε, καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἀνέβη, ἃ ἡτοίμασεν ὁ Θεὸς τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν αὐτόν.» οἱ δὲ ἁμαρτωλοὶ καὶ ὧδε κακῶς μοχθοῦσι καὶ ἐκεῖ πάλιν τὸ πῦρ αὐτοὺς μένει· καὶ τοὺς τοιούτους διπλῶς δεῖ κλαῦσαι, ὅτι καὶ ὧδε ἐν στενο χωρίᾳ εἰσὶ καὶ ἐκεῖ τὴν εὐρυχωρίαν οὐκ ἀπολαμβάνουσι. .... [Link.]

Pseudo-Boniface, Renunciation 5: 5 Believe in the advent of Christ, the resurrection of the body, and the judgment of all men. For then the impious shall be separated from the just, the one for the everlasting fire, the others for the eternal life. Then begins a life with God without death, a light without shadows, a health without sickness, a plenty without hunger, a happiness without fear, a joy with no misgivings. Then comes the eternal glory, in which the just shall shine like suns, for no eye has ever seen, no ear has ever heard, no heart has ever dreamed, of all that which God has prepared for those whom he loves. / 5 Venturum Christum credite, et carnis resurrectionem, et iudicium omnium hominum. Ibi discernuntur impii in ignem aeternum, iusti autem in vitam aeternam. Ibi est vita cum Deo sine morte, lux sine tenebris, salus sine aegritudine, satietas sine fame, felicitas sine timore, gaudium sine tristitia. Ibi aeterna gloria, ibi fulgebunt iusti sicut sol, quoniam oculus non vidit, nec auris audivit, nec in cor hominis ascendit quantum praeparavit Deus diligentibus se.

Codex Palatinus Latinus 485: Venturum Christum credite, et carnis resurrectionem, et iudicium omnium hominum. Ibi discernuntur impii a sorte iustorum et mittuntur in ignem aeternum, iusti autem in vitam aeternam. Ibi est vita cum Deo sine morte, ibi aeterna gloria sine fine, ibi fulgebunt iusti sicut sol, ibi omnia bona quae oculus non vidit, nec auris audivit, nec in cor hominis ascendit quantum praeparavit Deus diligentibus se, quod ipse praestare dignetur qui in trinitate perfecta vivit et regnat Deus in saecula saeculorum. Amen.

Photius, Bibliotheca 232: 232 .... Ὅτι τὰ ἡτοιμασμένα τοῖς δικαίοις ἀγαθὰ οὔτε ὀφθαλμὸς εἶδεν οὔτε οὖς ἤκου- σεν οὔτε ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου ἀνέβη. Ἡγήσιππος μέντοι, ἀρχαῖός τε ἀνὴρ καὶ ἀποστολικός, ἐν τῷ πέμπτῳ τῶν ὑπομνημάτων, οὐκ οἶδ' ὅ τι καὶ παθών, μάτην μὲν εἰρῆσθαι ταῦτα λέγει, καὶ καταψεύδεσθαι τοὺς ταῦτα φαμένους τῶν τε θειῶν γραφῶν καὶ τοῦ Κυρίου λέγοντος· «Μακάριοι οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ ὑμῶν οἱ βλέποντες καὶ τὰ ὦτα ὑμῶν τὰ ἀκούοντα» καὶ ἑξῆς. .... / 232 .... The good things prepared for the just, the eye has not seen, the ears have not heard, and they are not found in the heart of man. However, Hegesippus, one of the ancients, a contemporary of the apostles, in the fifth book of his Commentaries, in I do not know what context, says that these are empty words and that those who say them are liars since the Holy Scriptures say, "Blessed are your eyes because they see and happy your ears because they hear," and the rest. ....

Theodore A. Bergren, "Christian Influence on the Transmission History of 4, 5, and 6 Ezra," in Jewish Apocalyptic Heritage in Early Christianity, edited by James C. Vanderkam & William Adler, pages 110-111: In 7:96, the phrase “and they will see what no eye has seen” is inserted into a description of the joys of the elect. This statement is close to a passage quoted by Paul in 1 Cor 2:9-10 (probably derived from Isa 64:4) and has numerous other parallels in ancient Jewish, Christian and Islamic literature. Although it is not certain that the phrase in Arabic 1 derives directly from 1 Corinthians, such an origin is possible. .... In [4 Ezra] 5:40, the expanded Armenian text includes an element similar to that noted above in the Arabic 1 version of 7:96: “...the good things from him which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and have not occurred to man and man has never considered, which God has prepared for his beloved ones.” The literal approximation of this text to 1 Cor 2:9, which is much closer and more extensive than was the case in Arabic 1, makes it almost certain that the Armenian refers to the Pauline passage.

The ultimate source must be:

Isaiah 64.3 OG: 3 From of old we have not heard, nor have our eyes seen a God besides you, and your works which you will do for those who wait on you. / 3 ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος οὐκ ἠκούσαμεν οὐδὲ οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ ἡμῶν εἶδον θεὸν πλὴν σοῦ καὶ τὰ ἔργα σου ἃ ποιήσεις τοῖς ὑπομένουσιν ἔλεον.

Isaiah 65.17 OG: 17 For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth, and they shall not at all remember the former things, neither shall they at all come up into their heart. / 17 ἔσται γὰρ ὁ οὐρανὸς καινὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ καινή, καὶ οὐ μὴ μνησθῶσιν τῶν προτέρων, οὐδ᾽ οὐ μὴ ἐπέλθῃ αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τὴν καρδίαν.

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Secret Alias
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Re: More Proof Against Marcion was Rewritten More than Once

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:07 am

Continuing to riff on the Ebionite situation. Isn't it possible that the Church was de-Hellenized in the late second century? The evidence for 'primitive Christianity' - i.e. the Jewish-Christian origins of Christianity - are pretty much all from literary sources. When Christians are identified in the mid second century they are indistinguishable from philosophers - i.e. Justin, Athenagoras, Peregrinus et al. There seems to have been a lot of Homeric analogies in Celsus - i.e. those who cauterize their ears not to hear the siren call of the heresies, the Sybil followers. There are texts which speak of being fixed to the cross like Odysseus in order to hear the sirens calls. The list goes on and on. I can't think of a period where there isn't this Hellenistic influence WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SURVIVING TEXTS. They are often 'mythopoetic' in nature. We deny these myths because myths are lies. But when another history comes forward with the story of Jewish Christians living in primitive conditions (Acts) we say this isn't myth this is history. Yet all our earliest Christian sources are myth-makers. Same applies to the gospel.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: More Proof Against Marcion was Rewritten More than Once

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 am

And one more thing back to the OP. We have the author of Against Marcion going through the text of the gospel of Luke (Book 4) and the Pauline Epistles and scholars have insisted that the author has in front of him the Marcionite canon - so the gospel and Pauline Epistles of Marcion. To me this is stupid. When for instance he cites Galatians 2 he clearly uses the Irenaeus reading affirming that for an hour the apostles subjected himself to the pillars. But interestingly when Galatians 2:8 is cited in the same text the reading has been 'corrected' to 'not.' This shows that textual alteration took place in the rewrite process. This is quite common. Look for instance at the transmission of Ephrem's Commentary on the Pauline Epistles into Latin. The text has been used to demonstrate the existence of the Galatians-first canon even though the text has been altered by the translator to explicitly declare Romans as the first letter. But look even closer at this article and you see that the individual readings have been altered to accord with the Vulgate https://academic.oup.com/jts/article-ab ... m=fulltext. In short, determining Marcion's canon from a four time translated and correct Against Marcion of uncertain provenance is almost certainly worthless.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: More Proof Against Marcion was Rewritten More than Once

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:11 am

“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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