The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

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Giuseppe
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The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:17 pm

Are you sure that he was Herod?

Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate

(Luke 23:11)

You put the scarlet on his body and the thorns on his head

Melitos of Sardis, On Passover 13:3-4)

Now I am perplexed.

Was the Judaizer Melitos harmonizing a Gnostic tradition where the evil demiurge and not Herod was doing these things?

Or, an even more suggestive hypothesis, was Melitos preserving a tradition where the Transfiguration or Exaltation of Jesus coincided stricto sensu with the his Passion and Crucifixion (and even with the his Baptism)?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:25 pm

My sound suspicion, far from being a certainty,

The Reader knows perfectly what I consider an absolute certainty beyond any reasonable doubt, at the point that only a crazy or a fool can doubt about its sound evidence,

...is that in the original story the Transfiguration was just the cosmic Crucifixion in outer space.

Elijah and Moses were the original thieves crucified with Jesus the Son of Father.

All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them

(John 10:8)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:26 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:17 pm
Are you sure that he was Herod?

Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate

(Luke 23:11)

You put the scarlet on his body and the thorns on his head

Melitos of Sardis, On Passover 13:3-4)

Now I am perplexed.

Was the Judaizer Melitos harmonizing a Gnostic tradition where the evil demiurge and not Herod was doing these things?

Or, an even more suggestive hypothesis, was Melitos preserving a tradition where the Transfiguration or Exaltation of Jesus coincided stricto sensu with the his Passion and Crucifixion (and even with the his Baptism)?
What are you perplexed about? Melito blames these things on Israel (= "you"); Luke blames them on Herod and his soldiers.
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Giuseppe
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:28 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:26 pm
What are you perplexed about? Melito blames these things on Israel (= "you"); Luke blames them on Herod and his soldiers.
Have you the translation in english of the Melitos's passage ? Can you show it? Thank you.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:39 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:28 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:26 pm
What are you perplexed about? Melito blames these things on Israel (= "you"); Luke blames them on Herod and his soldiers.
Have you the translation in english of the Melitos's passage ? Can you show it? Thank you.
I wish you would give references. I assume this is the passage you are after, but you have "robe" where the texts/translations I have access to have "scourges." Here it is:

Melito of Sardis, On the Pascha 79 (Aleksandar Djakovac): 79 Σὺ μὲν οὖν ταῦτα παραπεμψάμενος ἑσπέραςἐπὶ τὴν τοῦ κυρίου σφαγὴν ἡτοίμασας αὐτῷἥλους ὀξεῖς καὶ μάρτυρας ψευδεῖς καὶβρόχους καὶ μάστιγας καὶ ὄξος καὶ χόλην καὶμάχαιραν καὶ θλῖψιν ὡς ἐπὶ φόνιον λῃστήν.Ἐπενεγκὼν γὰρ αὐτῷ καὶ μάστιγας τῷσώματι καὶ ἄκανθαν τῇ κεφαλῇ αὐτοῦ καὶτὰς καλὰς αὐτοῦ χεῖρας ἔδησας, αἵ σεἔπλασαν ἀπὸ γῆς, καὶ τὸ καλὸν αὐτοῦ ἐκεῖνοστόμα τὸ ψωμίσαν σε ζωήν, ἐψώμισαςχολήν, καὶ ἀπέκτεινάς σου τὸν κύριον ἐν τῇμεγάλῃ ἑορτῇ. [Link.]

Melito of Sardis, On the Pascha 79 (Stuart George Hall):

79 So then, you set these things aside,
and rushed to the slaying of the Lord.
You prepared for him sharp nails and false witnesses
(79) and ropes and scourges
and vinegar and gall
and sword and forceful restraint as against a murderous robber.
For you brought both scourges for his body
and thorn for his head;
and you bound his good hands,
which formed you from earth;
and that good mouth of his which fed you with life
you fed with gall.
And you killed your Lord at the great feast.

Melito of Sardis, On the Pascha 79 (Alistair Stewart-Sykes):

79 You put these things to one side,
you hurried to the slaughter of the Lord.
You prepared for him sharp nails and false witnesses,
and ropes and whips,
and vinegar and gall,
and a sword and torture as against a murderous thief.
You brought forth a flogging for his body,
and thorns for his head;
and you bound his goodly hands,
which formed you from the earth.
And you fed with gall his goodly mouth which fed you with life.
And you killed your Lord at the great feast.

Melito of Sardis, On the Pascha 79 (translator unknown to me): (79) Indeed, dismissing these things, you, to your detriment, prepared the following for the sacrifice of the Lord at eventide: sharp nails, and false witnesses, and fetters, and scourges, 79 and vinegar, and gall, and a sword, and affliction, and all as though it were for a blood-stained robber. For you brought to him scourges for his body, and the thorns for his head. And you bound those beautiful hands of his, which had formed you from the earth. And that beautiful mouth of his, which had nourished you with life, you filled with gall. And you killed your Lord at the time of the great feast. [Link.]

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davidmartin
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by davidmartin » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:32 pm

And indeed, before the cross was erected, he (Satan) was eager that it should be so; and he "wrought" [for this end] "in the children of disobedience." He wrought in Judas, in the Pharisees, in the Sadducees, in the old, in the young, and in the priests. But when it was just about to be erected, he was troubled, and infused repentance into the traitor, and pointed him to a rope to hang himself with, and taught him [to die by] strangulation. He terrified also the silly woman, disturbing her by dreams; and he, who had tried every means to have the cross prepared, now endeavoured to put a stop to its erection
this doesn't fit Guiseppe's theory but this letter of 'Ignatius' (early-mid 2nd century?) is similar to Melito. But ... he lets the Romans off scot free
Also who is the 'silly woman' huh? I think i know, but there's no room in most people's theories for her

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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:20 am

davidmartin wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:32 pm
And indeed, before the cross was erected, he (Satan) was eager that it should be so; and he "wrought" [for this end] "in the children of disobedience." He wrought in Judas, in the Pharisees, in the Sadducees, in the old, in the young, and in the priests. But when it was just about to be erected, he was troubled, and infused repentance into the traitor, and pointed him to a rope to hang himself with, and taught him [to die by] strangulation. He terrified also the silly woman, disturbing her by dreams; and he, who had tried every means to have the cross prepared, now endeavoured to put a stop to its erection
this doesn't fit Guiseppe's theory but this letter of 'Ignatius' (early-mid 2nd century?) is similar to Melito. But ... he lets the Romans off scot free
Also who is the 'silly woman' huh? I think i know, but there's no room in most people's theories for her
It is worth pointing out that this extract comes from the epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians, universally acknowledged to be spurious and usually dated to century IV or later.
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Giuseppe
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:35 am

Excuse Ben, but where is it pointed precisely the fact that "you" refers to deicide Jews and not to god?

Don't you concede that the alternative reading is as plausible, with "you" as god?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:50 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:35 am
Excuse Ben, but where is it pointed precisely the fact that "you" refers to deicide Jews and not to god?
I gave a link above. You just have to read back to the antecedent, which is Israel:

Melito of Sardis, On Pascha 77-79: 77 But you, O Israel [ὦ Ἰσραήλ], did not cry out to God with this voice, nor did you absolve yourself of guilt before the Lord, nor were you persuaded by his works. 78 The withered hand which was restored whole to its body did not persuade you; nor did the eyes of the blind which were opened by his hand; nor did the paralyzed bodies restored to health again through his voice; nor did that most extraordinary miracle persuade you, namely, the dead man raised to life from the tomb where already he had been lying for four days. (79) Indeed, dismissing these things, you, to your detriment, prepared the following for the sacrifice of the Lord at eventide: sharp nails, and false witnesses, and fetters, and scourges, 79 and vinegar, and gall, and a sword, and affliction, and all as though it were for a blood-stained robber. For you brought to him scourges for his body, and the thorns for his head. And you bound those beautiful hands of his, which had formed you from the earth. And that beautiful mouth of his, which had nourished you with life, you filled with gall. And you killed your Lord at the time of the great feast.

Don't you concede that the alternative reading is as plausible, with "you" as god?
No, of course not. The text is clear.
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by davidmartin » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:53 am

It is worth pointing out that this extract comes from the epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians, universally acknowledged to be spurious and usually dated to century IV or later
ha, even the 4th century is truly ancient and those opinions are essentially guesses. so, can't contain earlier material???
in fact scholars, once dismissive of a text, can't see the wood for the trees as they can't then go back and find a text useful, or they inherit a previous generations dismissiveness without critically re-evaluating them. that's why they miss the obvious things sometimes.
such as who is the 'silly woman'?
who do you think it is? this is the one place they let slip...

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