The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

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andrewcriddle
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by andrewcriddle » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:56 am

davidmartin wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:53 am
It is worth pointing out that this extract comes from the epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians, universally acknowledged to be spurious and usually dated to century IV or later
ha, even the 4th century is truly ancient and those opinions are essentially guesses. so, can't contain earlier material???
in fact scholars, once dismissive of a text, can't see the wood for the trees as they can't then go back and find a text useful, or they inherit a previous generations dismissiveness without critically re-evaluating them. that's why they miss the obvious things sometimes.
such as who is the 'silly woman'?
who do you think it is? this is the one place they let slip...
The 'silly woman' is Pontius Pilate's wife. pseudo-Ignatius sees her dream (in Matthew) as sent by Satan in an attempt to prevent the crucifixion.

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davidmartin
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by davidmartin » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:50 am

maybe or maybe not likely! why call her silly then? or not name her? especially when he doesn't blame any Roman in his line up
he is also changing timeframe as he mentions her and begins to talk after the crucifixion. he also said 'dreams' not the singular. these points cast doubt on that.

instead what of the possibility 'dreams' refers to 'visions' and 'silly' refers to prophecying? which ties in with Mary M as per other sources, that she taught and had visions (as per NT), was 'possessed' (according to the NT), and was active (as Per Gos. Mary and numerous other source). Its there if you want to see Mary's prominent role and connect a few dots together that she was an early force in the 1st century

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:55 am

davidmartin wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:53 am
It is worth pointing out that this extract comes from the epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians, universally acknowledged to be spurious and usually dated to century IV or later
ha, even the 4th century is truly ancient and those opinions are essentially guesses. so, can't contain earlier material???
Have you read Lightfoot? Whether you agree or disagree with him, his opinion on the matter is not a guess.
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davidmartin
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by davidmartin » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:48 pm

No, but i'd be interested in what he says. The impression I got was a lot of scholarship on them was early, reformation era almost and kind of set in stone
The thing is, the woman he mentions does look a bit like Pilate's wife dream i'll admit that

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:39 pm

davidmartin wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:48 pm
No, but i'd be interested in what he says. The impression I got was a lot of scholarship on them was early, reformation era almost and kind of set in stone
There is, it is safe to say, no modern scholar who argues for the authenticity of the Long Recension. If you want to argue from it, then I suggest you make a case for it. Start with external attestation. What are the earliest references to the Middle Recension? And what are the earliest references to the Long Recension? What, then, are the internal indicators? Does the Long Recension look more like an expansion than the Middle Recension looks like an abbreviation, or vice versa? And so on.

Lightfoot's entire Apostolic Fathers series is freely available on the Internet Archive.
The thing is, the woman he mentions does look a bit like Pilate's wife dream i'll admit that
Well, it has to be a woman who has dreamed something which threatened to put a stop to the crucifixion. (Incidentally, there is no word for "silly" in the Greek text; the word for woman here is γύναιον, which is a diminutive form of γυνή = "woman." The "silly" is the translator's attempt to capture the force of the diminutive, which can be a term of endearment if expressed by a husband, but which can also be somewhat contemptuous in tone, expressing the stereotype of feminine frailty or shallowness.)
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davidmartin
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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by davidmartin » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:07 pm

sigh ok fair points Mary M doesn't need such support i guess, damn thought i'd found something there, i hadn't thought it could refer to the Pilate wife episode which i'd forgotten about. but yes i do think that stuff is from later on but still a useful source, apart from the Maria the proselytite letters now those i'm still thinking are early

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Re: The demiurge and not Herod (!) put the thorns and the robe on Jesus

Post by Ethan » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:19 pm

demiurge means 'the working class' (δημός ἔργον), so the working class people of 1st century Judea put a thorn hat and robe on Mr Jesus?
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

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