Who made "the men as trees" was... ...the DEMIURGE

[Giuseppe]

He looked up and said, "I see men; they look like trees walking around."

(Mark 8:24)

I remember the passage of Genesis 3:7:

Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Hence the men are "like trees walking" insofar they have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge, knowing the good and the evil.

Why the need of a second attempt of healing by Jesus?

Evidently because it is an inferior kind of knowledge the knowledge that the men are mere sinners.

The blind of Bethsaida has to realize that that knowledge from the Tree of Knowledge was the Gnosis given by the Serpent == the supreme god (not the god of the Jews). It was not the mere effect of a rebellion against the creator, as the demiurge wanted make it believe.

The blind can see real MEN (primal images of the real supreme god, not YHWH), not more as mere trees walking (=mere sinners), only insofar he ceases to consider the apple bite


...as a positive act, not as effect of the Fall of humanity, but as the his real exaltation by anti-demiurgical Gnosis.

Hence this explains why

• the late gospels removed the episode of the failed healing

• why the same episode survived in GMark, despite of "Mark" being a Judaizer (real or masked as such): the understanding of the episode was very hard, only a Giuseppe could be able to decipher it.

[Giuseppe]

In the Hypostasis of Archons, when the true Eve was obliged to clone herself in a false Eve in the form of a tree to make the latter "Eve" (and not the true Eve) raped by the Archons, also there the "tree" allegorizes the carnal defiled nature of a humanity fallen pray of demiurgical forces.

A "Christ hanged on tree" is in turn an allegory of the primal man attacked by the Archons. Only that in the case of Christ, he is not the tree but he is nailed to the tree. The Archons can't make Christ a tree. They can only nail Christ on a tree. Christ is a so spiritual being that he can't be defiled/contaminated/corrupted by becoming the tree. The Archons can't corrupt/rape Christ. The Archons can only kill Christ.

[klewis]

See Isaiah 10:15-19 is where the imagery of the brier and the trees refer to the evil people.

[Giuseppe]

I know already that view, but I don't find more it persuasive insofar there is no way, under the hypothesis of a midrash from Isaiah 10:15-19, to explain the need of a second healing by Jesus.

The emphasis is on the correct interpretation (=hence, Gnosis) relating to a Biblical passage where the entire humanity is compared to a tree. My exegesis explains what is that correct interpretation as opposed to a false interpretation:

the correct interpretation is that who had heaten the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge has to be not more seen as a sinner cursed by the true god (=the creator) and deceived by a false god (=the Serpent).

But rather the contrary: who had heaten the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge has to be seen now as a victim saved by the true god (=the Serpent) and deceived by a false god (=the creator).

There is not a better interpretation than mine.

[klewis]

Sorry, my bad. Unfortunately, my understanding, of Gnosticism, is limited to the conversations I have with my wife.

[Benway]

In the Hypostasis of Archons, when the true Eve was obliged to clone herself in a false Eve in the form of a tree to make the latter "Eve" (and not the true Eve) raped by the Archons, also there the "tree" allegorizes the carnal defiled nature of a humanity fallen pray of demiurgical forces.

A "Christ hanged on tree" is in turn an allegory of the primal man attacked by the Archons. Only that in the case of Christ, he is not the tree but he is nailed to the tree. The Archons can't make Christ a tree. They can only nail Christ on a tree. Christ is a so spiritual being that he can't be defiled/contaminated/corrupted by becoming the tree. The Archons can't corrupt/rape Christ. The Archons can only kill Christ.

No.
In both examples you've given the body defiled by the Archons is seperate to the tree!
From Hypostasis of the Archons:

The rulers took counsel with one another and said, "Come, let us cause a deep sleep to fall upon Adam." And he slept. – Now the deep sleep that they "caused to fall upon him, and he slept" is Ignorance. – They opened his side like a living woman. And they built up his side with some flesh in place of her, and Adam came to be endowed only with soul.
And the spirit-endowed woman came to him and spoke with him, saying, "Arise, Adam." And when he saw her, he said, "It is you who have given me life; you will be called 'mother of the living'. – For it is she who is my mother. It is she who is the physician, and the woman, and she who has given birth."
Then the authorities came up to their Adam. And when they saw his female counterpart speaking with him, they became agitated with great agitation; and they became enamored of her. They said to one another, "Come, let us sow our seed in her," and they pursued her. And she laughed at them for their witlessness and their blindness; and in their clutches she became a tree, and left before them her shadowy reflection resembling herself; and they defiled it foully. – And they defiled the stamp of her voice, so that by the form they had modeled, together with their (own) image, they made themselves liable to condemnation.
Then the female spiritual principle came in the snake, the instructor; and it taught them, saying, "What did he say to you? Was it, 'From every tree in the garden shall you eat; yet – from the tree of recognizing good and evil do not eat'?"
The carnal woman said, "Not only did he say 'Do not eat', but even 'Do not touch it; for the day you eat from it, with death you are going to die.'"

Eve's spirit, her true self, becomes a tree. The shadowy reflection is the worthless carnal shell (in any gnostic thought at all ever). This is demonstrated by the carnal Eve who was raped parrots the words of the Archons as she only has mind and not spirit. The tree part of her becomes the serpent and saves them, by breaking the Archon's spell of ignorance.
How could you get this completely backwards?
On the repetition of the healing, from the Apocalypse of Peter:

And as he was saying these things, I saw the priests and the people running up to us with stones, as if they would kill us; and I was afraid that we were going to die.

And he said to me, "Peter, I have told you many times that they are blind ones who have no guide. If you want to know their blindness, put your hands upon (your) eyes - your robe - and say what you see."

But when I had done it, I did not see anything. I said "No one sees (this way)."

Again he told me, "Do it again."

And there came in me fear with joy, for I saw a new light greater than the light of day. Then it came down upon the Savior. And I told him about those things which I saw.

If you want a gnostic parallel with Mark's walking trees pericope, I suggest looking here as well.

"Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will put them to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them."

When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord? That it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."

But I, when I had looked, said "Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place."

But he said to me, "I have told you, 'Leave the blind alone!'. And you, see how they do not know what they are saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame."

And I saw someone about to approach us resembling him, even him who was laughing on the tree. And he was <filled> with a Holy Spirit, and he is the Savior. And there was a great, ineffable light around them, and the multitude of ineffable and invisible angels blessing them. And when I looked at him, the one who gives praise was revealed.

And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law. But he who stands near him is the living Savior, the first in him, whom they seized and released, who stands joyfully looking at those who did him violence, while they are divided among themselves. Therefore he laughs at their lack of perception, knowing that they are born blind. So then the one susceptible to suffering shall come, since the body is the substitute. But what they released was my incorporeal body. But I am the intellectual Spirit filled with radiant light. He whom you saw coming to me is our intellectual Pleroma, which unites the perfect light with my Holy Spirit."

Once again, the immortal spirit is in a tree unharmed, and the Archons destroy the worthless shell (who is not on a tree).

There is not a better interpretation than mine.

Thanks for the wine!

[Giuseppe]

Eve's spirit, her true self, becomes a tree. The shadowy reflection is the worthless carnal shell (in any gnostic thought at all ever). This is demonstrated by the carnal Eve who was raped parrots the words of the Archons as she only has mind and not spirit. The tree part of her becomes the serpent and saves them, by breaking the Archon's spell of ignorance.
How could you get this completely backwards?

no, read well the text.

in their clutches she became a tree

It says that the false Eve raped by the Archons (as such, the Eve being "in their clutches") is the tree, not the true Eve who saves herself from the Archons.

Once again, the immortal spirit is in a tree unharmed, and the Archons destroy the worthless shell (who is not on a tree).

Mark 8:24 doesn't talk about Jesus being on a tree but about generic men, i.e. the entire humanity being like trees.

This image may give you better the graphic idea:



When are the men seen not more as trees? Simple: when they are like... ...themselves! Their true nature is the image of the supreme god (not YHWH): the Serpent.

There is not a better interpretation than mine.

Thanks for the wine!

The Gnostics used water not wine in their eucharist.

[Benway]

It says that the false Eve raped by the Archons (as such, the Eve being "in their clutches") is the tree, not the true Eve who saves herself from the Archons.

That would mean that the Archons raped a tree. No wonder she was laughing at them.

I'll give some thought to the Eden leaves idea about looking like a tree.

I have no idea about the drinking preferences of gnostics, but for myself, like Jesus I'm partial to wine, so I'd have done okay at Cana. I imagine any gnostics at Cana would have been dreadfully disappointed.

[Charles Wilson]

Mark 8: 23 - 26 (RSV):

[23] And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the village; and when he had spit on his eyes and laid his hands upon him, he asked him, "Do you see anything?"
[24] And he looked up and said, "I see men; but they look like trees, walking."
[25] Then again he laid his hands upon his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and saw everything clearly.
[26] And he sent him away to his home, saying, "Do not even enter the village."

Josephus, 5, 3, 2:

"But Titus, intending to pitch his camp nearer to the city than Scopus, placed as many of his choice horsemen and footmen as he thought sufficient opposite to the Jews, to prevent their sallying out upon them, while he gave orders for the whole army to level the distance, as far as the wall of the city. So they threw down all the hedges and walls which the inhabitants had made about their gardens and groves of trees, and cut down all the fruit trees that lay between them and the wall of the city, and filled up all the hollow places and the chasms, and demolished the rocky precipices with iron instruments; and thereby made all the place level from Scopus to Herod's monuments, which adjoined to the pool called the Serpent's Pool."

Giuseppe --

I'm not going to get into deep discussion here. Before you can invoke Gnosticism or the Demiurge or any of that stuff, you have to either rule out Historical readings or show that the Gnosticism was controlling the Texts before the texts were written and I do not believe you have accomplished that. So why I am wasting my time here?

"...Then again he laid his hands upon his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and saw everything clearly."

Over and over, we are given "Miraculous!" Texts. Only after a reading or two do we sometimes notice a small hint, a mere word or two that the subject is something else.

"Again, he laid his hands upon his eyes..." Something was done and then done again. Below the above quoted passage from Josephus, we read:

"Now at this very time the Jews contrived the following stratagem against the Romans..."

"Now the Roman soldiers thought this cunning stratagem of theirs was to be believed real, and thinking they had the one party under their power, and could punish them as they pleased, and hoping that the other party would open their gates to them, set to the execution of their designs accordingly. But for Titus himself, he had this surprising conduct of the Jews in suspicion; for whereas he had invited them to come to terms of accommodation, by Josephus, but one day before, he could then receive no civil answer from them; so he ordered the soldiers to stay where they were..."

A trap! A few Romans do not obey and they pay the price:

"... the Jews ran out and encompassed them round, and fell upon them behind, while that multitude which stood upon the wall threw a heap of stones and darts of all kinds at them, insomuch that they slew a considerable number, and wounded many more; for it was not easy for the Romans to escape..."

"...After this these Jews, without keeping any decorum, grew insolent upon their good fortune, and jested upon the Romans for being deluded by the trick they bad put upon them, and making a noise with beating their shields, leaped for gladness, and made joyful exclamations; while these soldiers were received with threatenings by their officers, and with indignation by Caesar himself..."

So Titus threatens Capital Punishment on a large number of soldiers. Then:

"However, the other legions came round about Titus, and entreated his favor to these their fellow soldiers, and made supplication to him, that he would pardon the rashness of a few, on account of the better obedience of all the rest; and promised for them that they should make amends for their present fault, by their more virtuous behavior for the time to come...So Caesar complied with their desires, and with what prudence dictated to him also; for he esteemed it fit to punish single persons by real executions, but that the punishment of great multitudes should proceed no further than reproofs; so he was reconciled to the soldiers, but gave them a special charge to act more wisely for the future; and he considered with himself how he might be even with the Jews for their stratagem. And now when the space between the Romans and the wall had been leveled, which was done in four days, and as he was desirous to bring the baggage of the army, with the rest of the multitude that followed him, safely to the camp..."

The Point of View here is interesting. However, let us look at the POV from the Jewish Insurrectionist' side:

1. The Romans cut down everything, from fruit trees on, up to the walls of the city. "So you see what is happening?"
"I see men; but they look like trees, walking."

So, the blind man can see.

2.Then again he laid his hands upon his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and saw everything clearly.

The Jews figure out a way to ensnare the Romans. Titus sees it but some disobey. The Jews are ecstatic.

"...now when the space between the Romans and the wall had been leveled, which was done in four days..."

This parallels Zakkai but notice that after the second healing, the Blind Man sees everything clearly. This is a statement of INTERNAL STATES. Even if not, the Blind Man knows what he sees.

3. "And he sent him away to his home, saying, "Do not even enter the village."

But...Wasn't the Blind Man AT his home? No. The "Blindness" is Symbolic. Jerusalem is to fall. Even a fleeting victory over the Romans will soon bring total destruction. Even a Zakkai could see this coming.

Even a Zakkai could see everything clearly.

CW

[Giuseppe]

It says that the false Eve raped by the Archons (as such, the Eve being "in their clutches") is the tree, not the true Eve who saves herself from the Archons.

That would mean that the Archons raped a tree. No wonder she was laughing at them.

I have read again the text and I see that you are correct on that point: the true Eve saved herself by becoming a tree.

But even so I like a lot my exegesis of the episode, pace the Charles's atwillism.

I should thank you, Benway, for the your reference to a Christ appearing on the tree while a false Christ is crucified in the his place.

If the tree is the original cross, then a Christ who saves himself by being not the guy crucified on the cross but appearing ABOVE the cross/tree may have moved the Judaizers to the following reaction:

The introduction of the titulus crucis ABOVE the cross/tree.

So it is not more the gnostic (=anti-demiurgical) Christ being ABOVE the cross/tree, but, in the his place, a mere Roman "objective" warning that claims: the guy crucified on the cross/tree here is the real Jewish Christ, therefore don't believe these Gnostics there out saying that the victim was not the true Jewish Christ