Simon Magus Invented the Four Gospel tradition?
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Stephan Huller
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Re: Simon Magus Invented the Four Gospel tradition?
Also - why is Valentinus never connected with Simon when his system more closely resembles Simon's than Marcion? Very curious.
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Stephan Huller
- Posts: 3009
- Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm
Re: Simon Magus Invented the Four Gospel tradition?
Another odd coincidence. Simon Magus is identified as being active during the reign of Claudius by Irenaeus. The same time Jesus is said to have been crucified in Demonstration.
Re: Simon Magus Invented the Four Gospel tradition?
Hi Stephan,
I applaud your efforts sorting out the works of the patristic heresiologists. I find your posts valuable and fascinating.
However, I can't help but wonder if these men were even attempting to write history. I suspect the truth, the historical facts, were not particularly important to them. What was important to them was to discredit, at nearly all costs, what they considered to be heretical doctrine.
Sure they likely knew a fair amount about those they considered to be heretics that were active around their own times. But going back more than a very few decades, they likely had little concrete knowledge about their targets. They may have known very little --- or cared little for the facts --- about shadowy and legendary figures like Dositheus and Simon (the Magus).
We know the heresiologists were liars. I think we can safely assume that Simon, Meander and Marcion didn't practice cannibalism, a cleverly devised implication in a work attributed to Justin (Apology 1.26). And we can assume that the people of Pontus, from whence Marcion came, did not cut up the dead bodies of their parents along with sheep to devour at their feasts --- and that Marcion was not more savage than even the beasts of that barbarous region as Tertullian claimed (AM 1.1).
The works of these men are rife with lies, over-the-top accusations, polemics, and hyperbole among what may be some actual facts. It's a Herculean effort the sift truth from lies, and, I believe, attempting to separate the kernels of truth from the myriad of half-truths, fabrications and lies takes one very far out on a limb of speculation.
Unfortunately, the flawed works of these men provide the only available sources of information for Marcion. And only by attempting to sift truth from lies in these extremely biased works can one try to determine what Marcion's version of the Gospel may have looked like, and what his epistles of Paul looked like. Such efforts are, in my opinion, no more than intellectual exercises, and any resulting, proposed, constructed documents no more than flimsy suggestions.
robert j.
I applaud your efforts sorting out the works of the patristic heresiologists. I find your posts valuable and fascinating.
However, I can't help but wonder if these men were even attempting to write history. I suspect the truth, the historical facts, were not particularly important to them. What was important to them was to discredit, at nearly all costs, what they considered to be heretical doctrine.
Sure they likely knew a fair amount about those they considered to be heretics that were active around their own times. But going back more than a very few decades, they likely had little concrete knowledge about their targets. They may have known very little --- or cared little for the facts --- about shadowy and legendary figures like Dositheus and Simon (the Magus).
We know the heresiologists were liars. I think we can safely assume that Simon, Meander and Marcion didn't practice cannibalism, a cleverly devised implication in a work attributed to Justin (Apology 1.26). And we can assume that the people of Pontus, from whence Marcion came, did not cut up the dead bodies of their parents along with sheep to devour at their feasts --- and that Marcion was not more savage than even the beasts of that barbarous region as Tertullian claimed (AM 1.1).
The works of these men are rife with lies, over-the-top accusations, polemics, and hyperbole among what may be some actual facts. It's a Herculean effort the sift truth from lies, and, I believe, attempting to separate the kernels of truth from the myriad of half-truths, fabrications and lies takes one very far out on a limb of speculation.
Unfortunately, the flawed works of these men provide the only available sources of information for Marcion. And only by attempting to sift truth from lies in these extremely biased works can one try to determine what Marcion's version of the Gospel may have looked like, and what his epistles of Paul looked like. Such efforts are, in my opinion, no more than intellectual exercises, and any resulting, proposed, constructed documents no more than flimsy suggestions.
robert j.
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Stephan Huller
- Posts: 3009
- Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm
Re: Simon Magus Invented the Four Gospel tradition?
I guess I start back a few steps further and wonder - what's genre of writing did the Christian syntagma develop from? What literary predecessor gave birth to lists of "philosophical sects" = heresies? I can't shake my suspicion it derives its origin from imperial decrees or legal writings. If not what else?