Understanding the Jews and Christian Messianic Beliefs

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Understanding the Jews and Christian Messianic Beliefs

Post by Charles Wilson »

John2 wrote:Concerning Alexandra Salome, who was influenced by the Pharisees, Josephus says that "she restored again those practices which the Pharisees had introduced, according to the traditions of their forefathers, and which her father-in-law, Hyrcanus, had abrogated" (Ant. 13.16.2).
John2-

The problem with the Queen Salome quote is that it is the culmination of an entire section of History with Alexander Jannaeus which shows that the Pharisees were absolutely and completely HATED.
A Racial Smear was begun against Hyrcanus 1 and continued through Jannaeus and Salome. Salome only gives the Pharisees power because husband Jannaeus told her that if she was to be Queen, she must give the Pharisees his body to do with as they pleased and let them run the bureaucracy.

The Pharisees behaved "no different than as lords".

Make no mistake about it. The Pharisees are H-A-T-E-D!!! They are hated into the time of Herod and beyond.

CW
John2
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Re: Understanding the Jews and Christian Messianic Beliefs

Post by John2 »

Charles Wilson,

Regardless of how people may have felt about the Pharisees at any time in history, I cited Ant. 13.16.2 only to make the point that the Pharisees had practices "according to the traditions of their forefathers" and that they weren't observed by everyone.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Understanding the Jews and Christian Messianic Beliefs

Post by Charles Wilson »

John2 wrote:Regardless of how people may have felt about the Pharisees at any time in history, I cited Ant. 13.16.2 only to make the point that the Pharisees had practices "according to the traditions of their forefathers" and that they weren't observed by everyone.
'S All OK wid me
Steven Donnelly
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Re: Understanding the Jews and Christian Messianic Beliefs

Post by Steven Donnelly »

Greetings John2,

Thanks for your feedback. The statement in question within my post (i.e. neither the Hasmoneans nor the Herodians “were necessarily looked upon with favor by the rabbinate”) leans largely upon Josephus. The following citations appear to support my statement:

For there was a certain sect of men that were Jews, who valued themselves highly upon the exact skill they had in the law of their fathers, and made men believe they were highly favored by God, by whom this set of women were inveigled. These are those that are called the sect of the Pharisees, who were in a capacity of greatly opposing kings. A cunning sect they were, and soon elevated to a pitch of open fighting and doing mischief. Accordingly, when all the people of the Jews gave assurance of their good-will to Caesar, and to the king's government, these very men did not swear, being above six thousand; and when the king imposed a fine upon them, Pheroras's wife paid their fine for them. In order to requite which kindness of hers, since they were believed to have the foreknowledge of things to come by Divine inspiration, they foretold how God had decreed that Herod's government should cease, and his posterity should be deprived of it; but that the kingdom should come to her and Pheroras, and to their children. These predictions were not concealed from Salome, but were told the king; as also how they had perverted some persons about the palace itself; so the king slew such of the Pharisees as were principally accused, and Bagoas the eunuch, and one Carus, who exceeded all men of that time in comeliness, and one that was his catamite (Antiquities, 17.2.4).


Josephus’ next segment conveys a measure of the tension between the practices of Herod and the actions of the pious among first century Jewry. (It rather reminds me of Saturday afternoons in front of our apartment when hundreds of haredi neighbors aggressively prance up the street yelling “shabbos! shab--bos!” Apparently the locals haven’t yet got over the fact that the government decided to open a public parking lot on Saturday.)

On ethical grounds, it’s probably unfair to assume Herod should enjoy equal footing with modern authorities; though, I suppose that one might well imagine a rallying of dissident religious malcontents similarly. Whether the portrait offers a fitting analogy with first century attitudes or not is debatable, yet contempt for Herod seems difficult to dispute.

2. There was one Judas, the son of Saripheus, and Mattbias, the son of Margalothus, two of the most eloquent men among the Jews, and the most celebrated interpreters of the Jewish laws, and men well beloved by the people, because of their education of their youth; for all those that were studious of virtue frequented their lectures every day. These men, when they found that the king's distemper was incurable, excited the young men that they would pull down all those works which the king had erected contrary to the law of their fathers, and thereby obtain the rewards which the law will confer on them for such actions of piety; for that it was truly on account of Herod's rashness in making such things as the law had forbidden, that his other misfortunes, and this distemper also, which was so unusual among mankind, and with which he was now afflicted, came upon him; for Herod had caused such things to be made which were contrary to the law, of which he was accused by Judas and Matthias; for the king had erected over the great gate of the temple a large golden eagle, of great value, and had dedicated it to the temple. Now the law forbids those that propose to live according to it, to erect images or representations of any living creature. So these wise men persuaded [their scholars] to pull down the golden eagle; alleging, that although they should incur any danger, which might bring them to their deaths, the virtue of the action now proposed to them would appear much more advantageous to them than the pleasures of life; since they would die for the preservation and observation of the law of their fathers; since they would also acquire an everlasting fame and commendation; since they would be both commended by the present generation, and leave an example of life that would never be forgotten to posterity; since that common calamity of dying cannot be avoided by our living so as to escape any such dangers; that therefore it is a right thing for those who are in love with a virtuous conduct, to wait for that fatal hour by such behavior as may carry them out of the world with praise and honor; and that this will alleviate death to a great degree, thus to come at it by the performance of brave actions, which bring us into danger of it; and at the same time to leave that reputation behind them to their children, and to all their relations, whether they be men or women, which will be of great advantage to them afterward.

3. And with such discourses as this did these men excite the young men to this action; and a report being come to them that the king was dead, this was an addition to the wise men's persuasions; so, in the very middle of the day, they got upon the place, they pulled down the eagle, and cut it into pieces with axes, while a great number of the people were in the temple. And now the king's captain, upon hearing what the undertaking was, and supposing it was a thing of a higher nature than it proved to be, came up thither, having a great band of soldiers with him, such as was sufficient to put a stop to the multitude of those who pulled down what was dedicated to God; so he fell upon them unexpectedly, and as they were upon this bold attempt, in a foolish presumption rather than a cautious circumspection, as is usual with the multitude, and while they were in disorder, and incautious of what was for their advantage; so he caught no fewer than forty of the young men, who had the courage to stay behind when the rest ran away, together with the authors of this bold attempt, Judas and Matthius, who thought it an ignominious thing to retire upon his approach, and led them to the king. And when they were come to the king, and he asked them if they had been so bold as to pull down what he had dedicated to God, "Yes, (said they,) what was contrived we contrived, and what hath been performed we performed it, and that with such a virtuous courage as becomes men; for we have given our assistance to those things which were dedicated to the majesty of God, and we have provided for what we have learned by hearing the law; and it ought not to be wondered at, if we esteem those laws which Moses had suggested to him, and were taught him by God, and which he wrote and left behind him, more worthy of observation than thy commands. Accordingly we will undergo death, and all sorts of punishments which thou canst inflict upon us, with pleasure, since we are conscious to ourselves that we shall die, not for any unrighteous actions, but for our love to religion." And thus they all said, and their courage was still equal to their profession, and equal to that with which they readily set about this undertaking. And when the king had ordered them to be bound, he sent them to Jericho, and called together the principal men among the Jews; and when they were come, he made them assemble in the theater, and because he could not himself stand, he lay upon a couch, and enumerated the many labors that he had long endured on their account, and his building of the temple, and what a vast charge that was to him; while the Asamoneans, during the hundred and twenty-five years of their government, had not been able to perform any so great a work for the honor of God as that was; that he had also adorned it with very valuable donations, on which account he hoped that he had left himself a memorial, and procured himself a reputation after his death. He then cried out, that these men had not abstained from affronting him, even in his lifetime, but that in the very day time, and in the sight of the multitude, they had abused him to that degree, as to fall upon what he had dedicated, and in that way of abuse had pulled it down to the ground. They pretended, indeed, that they did it to affront him; but if any one consider the thing truly, they will find that they were guilty of sacrilege against God therein.

4. But the people, on account of Herod's barbarous temper, and for fear he should be so cruel and to inflict punishment on them, said what was done was done without their approbation, and that it seemed to them that the actors might well be punished for what they had done. But as for Herod, he dealt more mildly with others [of the assembly] but he deprived Matthias of the high priesthood, as in part an occasion of this action, and made Joazar, who was Matthias's wife's brother, high priest in his stead. Now it happened, that during the time of the high priesthood of this Matthias, there was another person made high priest for a single day, that very day which the Jews observed as a fast. The occasion was this: This Matthias the high priest, on the night before that day when the fast was to be celebrated, seemed, in a dream, to have conversation with his wife; and because he could not officiate himself on that account, Joseph, the son of Ellemus, his kinsman, assisted him in that sacred office. But Herod deprived this Matthias of the high priesthood, and burnt the other Matthias, who had raised the sedition, with his companions, alive. And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon (Antiquities, 17.6.2-4).

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-17.htm

Hopefully I’m not wearying you with so many pasted words. You mentioned Antiquities 15.1.1, but any positive image building for Herod on that account appears somewhat short lived:

But Pollio the Pharisee, and Sameas, a disciple of his, were honored by him above all the rest; for when Jerusalem was besieged, they advised the citizens to receive Herod, for which advice they were well requited. But this Pollio, at the time when Herod was once upon his trial of life and death, foretold, in way of reproach, to Hyrcanus and the other judges, how this Herod, whom they suffered now to escape, would afterward inflict punishment on them all; which had its completion in time, while God fulfilled the words he had spoken.

Maybe another reference worth exploring is Antiquities 15.10.4. Meanwhile, I appreciate the balancing input.
Last edited by Steven Donnelly on Wed May 21, 2014 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Understanding the Jews and Christian Messianic Beliefs

Post by Stephan Huller »

BTW Kosiba can't have been the real name of Simon. Use your head.
Steven Donnelly
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Re: Understanding the Jews and Christian Messianic Beliefs

Post by Steven Donnelly »

Stephan Huller:

While I can't be sure that your comment was addressed to me, what is your basis for rejecting Kosiba/Kosba as a legitimate name?

A quick glance at a digitized manuscript suggests to me that it's a valid prospect:
http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explor ... e/B-300494
Stephan Huller
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Re: Understanding the Jews and Christian Messianic Beliefs

Post by Stephan Huller »

As long as you are spelling it that way
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spin
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Re: Understanding the Jews and Christian Messianic Beliefs

Post by spin »

The man himself signed it כוסבא.
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Stephan Huller
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Re: Understanding the Jews and Christian Messianic Beliefs

Post by Stephan Huller »

Yeah I grew up only knowing koziba. Reactionary on my part
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spin
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Re: Understanding the Jews and Christian Messianic Beliefs

Post by spin »

Stephan Huller wrote:Yeah I grew up only knowing koziba. Reactionary on my part
Here's where I say, BTW Koziba can't have been the real name of Simon. Use your head. :D
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