The Paraclite is Marcion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:35 am

I am reading the Delafosse (alias Turmel)'s commentary on the fourth gospel.

It is curious to know the reasons to identify the Paraclite with Marcion.

I can alone (independently from the reading) already now to infer why 2 John 7 meant Marcion as the Anti-Christ and why there was a so strong need of calling someone "Anti-Christ".

The first Paraclite had to be converted in the "Anti-Christ".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:46 am

This is the my modest translation from the French text:

The Paraclite, the defender of Christ is a man. And, therefore, the identification that the Gospel proposes for us is artificial. He is supposed to want to enlighten us, to guide us. In reality he misleads us. Let us leave this lie and try to identify the character who originally bore the title of "Defender", which everyone, on a certain date and in a certain environment, commonly called by that name. To deserve such honor, he must have, doubtless, engaged in an extraordinary apostolate. But which one? The gospel tells us that he has relations with the unbelieving world. But this information, which seems to put us on the right track, teaches us nothing, since Paul and all those who, after him, have spread the Christian name, met on their way the incredulous either Jews or pagans. The embarrassment disappears when one remembers where one is. We are at the spiritual Christ, and it is the master of the house who has the word.

This man whose spiritual Christ announces the coming has appeared around 130; he was called Marcion. He has ''given witness" to his master; he has "glorified" him; he has "remembered" to the disciples all that the divine doctor had revealed; he has "teached all things". And we now understand these formulas which, applied to an ordinary apostolate, would seem strange. The "Defender" did not perform an ordinary apostolate. He preached Christ, not to Jews and Gentiles, but to the disciples, more precisely disciples of the disciples, conforming in this to the intention of the teacher who said, 17:20: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message". It was addressed only to people who had already heard of Christ, who thought they knew him, who knew him, but who had in mind only an image distorted by prejudices. He worked to correct their mistakes, "reminding" them of the teachings given by the teacher but forgotten. In this way he gave "witness" to Christ, to the true Christ, to the spiritual Christ; that is how he "glorified" the Christ. This good servant, let us hasten to say it, was not abandoned to his own strength. His master supported him, inspired him, dictated his sermons (16:13: "He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears… it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you."). Yet, despite such a powerful collaboration, the "Defender" achieved only incomplete results. No doubt he made conquests; but the great mass of the Christian people was irreducible and refused to abandon their carnal Christ. The "Defender" had no other resource than to convict this unbelieving world of sin. It is, moreover, what the spiritual Christ had predicted (16: 8): "he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin".

Marcion originally occupied the role of Paraclete. Then he was ousted and his role, after a detour, ended up in the Spirit of truth. I said: after a detour. Indeed, the Spirit of Truth, who was the definitive heir of Marcion, was not the immediate heir. The charge of Paraclite, after having escaped Marcion, had an interim holder who exercised it for a few years before yielding it to the Spirit. This holder was Montanus who, from around 160, evangelized the Phrygia.

(p. 112-114, Le quatrième Evangile, H. Delafosse alias Turmel)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:11 am

Evidence that Papias is post-Marcion is the fact that he knew the epistles of 1 & 2 John who knew Marcion as the "Antichrist".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:00 am

We must consider the possibility that "Marcion"/"Paul" is more closely related to the Johannine theology than Lukan.

A very tenuous tradition in Papian manuscripts states that it was John, not Luke or Paul, that Marcion learned from.
Niente è ingannevole o depravato come Guiseppe.

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WHY JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS THE ORIGINAL "SON OF THUNDER" (and of Magdalene) AND ONE OF SEVEN DEMONS

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:38 am

Just as Jesus, as the precursor of the Paraclite (the historical Marcion, then the holy spirit), served to replace the glossolalia of the early Christians ( = hence a schizophrenical holy spirit talking via them), so the Jewish John was reduced to a mere precursor of Jesus. Originally, therefore, John was an enemy of Jesus just as Jesus was an enemy of the holy spirit.

In the field of precursors and (their) predicted people, the rule is always:

the precursor of X was originally an enemy of X.



Hence, the rivalry along the line "Jesus versus the Paraclite" reflects the original rivalry along early Christians (=adorers of YHWH) and new Christians (=enemies of YHWH), the Paraclite being originally Marcion. This rivalry is shown by the accusation thrown by Marcion himself against the Judaizers.

The rivalry between John the Baptist and the Gospel Jesus reflects therefore a conflict preceding Marcion. A conflict among early Christians (=adorers of YHWH) and Zealots.

A dangerous Zealot, the more dangerous for the Romans in absolute, was allegorized by an angel who was the "father" of seven thunders.

10 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.”

5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me once more: “Go, take the scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.”

9 So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but ‘in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.’” 10 I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour. 11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”

(Revelation 10)


These 7 thunders were 7 Leaders of Zealots just as their historical father.

They were demonized by the early Christians as seven demons. And their mother was sanitized by the Gospel Jesus himself, who freed her from "7 demons".

Hence Zebedee == Thunder == the husband of Mary Magdalene == the dangerous Zealot I was talking about.

Then "John son of Zebedee" is merely John son of Mary Magdalene. Just as James his brother. "Mary Magddalene" is the caustic Christian parody of the original mother of John the Baptist.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Nasruddin » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:47 pm

You seem desperate to make this fit. It all sounds like clutching at weak connections to draw attention away from what is written.

2 Samuel 21:1-6, 9
Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year; and David inquired of the Lord. The Lord said, ‘There is blood-guilt on Saul and on his house, because he put the Gibeonites to death.’ So the king called the Gibeonites and spoke to them. (Now the Gibeonites were not of the people of Israel, but of the remnant of the Amorites; although the people of Israel had sworn to spare them, Saul had tried to wipe them out in his zeal for the people of Israel and Judah.) David said to the Gibeonites, ‘What shall I do for you? How shall I make expiation, that you may bless the heritage of the Lord?’ The Gibeonites said to him, ‘It is not a matter of silver or gold between us and Saul or his house; neither is it for us to put anyone to death in Israel.’ He said, ‘What do you say that I should do for you?’ They said to the king, ‘The man who consumed us and planned to destroy us, so that we should have no place in all the territory of Israel - let seven of his sons be handed over to us, and we will impale them before the Lord at Gibeon on the mountain of the Lord.’ The king said, ‘I will hand them over.’... he gave them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they impaled them on the mountain before the Lord. The seven of them perished together. They were put to death in the first days of harvest, at the beginning of the barley harvest.

Seven sons of Saul are crucified on a mountain, after a period of 3 years famine. The time they were crucified was the barley harvest, which was the month of Nisan, the time of Passover and the crucifixtion of Jesus on a hill after a 3 year ministry (see Luke 4:25 where Jesus refers to himself - But the truth is, there were many widows in Israel in the time of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up for three years and six months).

Act 19:11-16
God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that when the handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were brought to the sick, their diseases left them, and the evil spirits came out of them. Then some itinerant Jewish exorcists tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, ‘I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul proclaims.’ Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this. But the evil spirit said to them in reply, ‘Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?’ Then the man with the evil spirit leapt on them, mastered them all, and so overpowered them that they fled out of the house naked and wounded.

Even the author of Acts knew that Paul was originally Saul! David's famine of 3 years is the ministry of Jesus. The evil spirit knew Paul and Jesus, but not the seven. Just as Saul who tried to destroy the Gibeonites (non-Israelites but protected by God) had seven of his sons destroyed, so did Paul (who had tried to destroy the early followers of Jesus) had seven of his "sons" routed. "Sceva" means secret/obscured - just as Jesus was obscured by the cloud at his Transfiguration, and the numerous occasions in the Gospels where he was sought for, but could not be seen or found.

How does this relate to Revelations and the 7 thunders which herald destruction? The 7 thunders are the 7 priests with 7 trumpets who walked before the Ark around the walls of Jericho (Joshua 6) before its destruction. They are the 7 sons of Elianoi ("I turn my eyes to god" I Chron 3:24) and the 7 men full of the Spirit (Acts 6:3). They are the 7 sons of Jesse who the prophet Samuel rejected as unworthy to lead Israel (1 Samuel 16). They are the 7 sons of Sceva - the obscured one - who try to destroy the evil spirits in Acts. The seven sons of Saul whose blood guilt was in trying to destroy those protected by god - just as Paul/Saul had blood guilt trying to destroy the 7 men of Spirit of Acts 6:3, and the early Christians (he was present at the death of Stephen, one of those 7).

There are no 7 sons of a zealot.
They have nothing to do with James and John "the sons of thunder". (I discuss them in another thread).
But there are 7 sons of a father - a father who brings calamity and rejection upon those very sons.
And then we have Jesus, one of 7 children - 5 sons and 2 sisters (Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?) A man whose supposed divine father brought about his crucifiction.

Giuseppe
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:59 pm

Nasruddin, the fact that you are a mere Christian apologist is proved by your natural reluctance to see these 7 thunders behind the 7 demons inside Mary of Magdala before Jesus exorcized them from her.

The Samaritan village episode in Luke is a not so implicit polemic against the two witnesses of Revelation.

Frankly, I would like not talk with you about this topic. You are totally unable to do serious free research under the Christ Myth theory.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Nasruddin » Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:10 pm

Giuseppe, you are a greater fool than Nasruddin. Can you counter my comments without unstructured dismisal? No. Only by name calling can you justify yourself.

And tell me - Where do you see demons recorded as thunder? Did Mary Magdalene have flatulence, that seven thunders were cast out of her?

Giuseppe
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:58 pm

Nasruddin wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:10 pm
Giuseppe, you are a greater fool than Nasruddin. Can you counter my comments without unstructured dismisal? No. Only by name calling can you justify yourself.

And tell me - Where do you see demons recorded as thunder? Did Mary Magdalene have flatulence, that seven thunders were cast out of her?
The seven demons could be also the seven archons of Gnostic universe who possessed the original mother of the abort/demiurge, the reason why Jesus was hailed as "Son of Mary"/"Carpenter" by who had taken him for the demiurge, without recognizing him as the son of an alien god.

So, even if I am wrong about the equation thunders/demons, I can still be right about the equation demons/archons and Mary as the original Gnostic Sophia.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Nasruddin » Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:20 pm

The fact you can equate the number seven with the number seven does not mean that you can successfully equate the articles themselves.

You have moved away from your idea that the seven thunders were John and his six brothers, the seven sons of an "historical father" Zebedee the Zealot and Mary Magdalene. The thunders are no longer demons, but the demons are now Archons. Your interpretation of Revelations has been abandoned and is meaningless in your new insight.

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