The Paraclite is Marcion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:25 am

Ok, ok about Matthew. But we have already discussed about the birth story in Luke-Matthew being there for two reasons, basically:
  • to contrast Marcion, denier of the birth.
  • to usurp from John the Baptist a birth story originally referred to John the Baptist.
About the latter point, I had promised to Peter (not Cephas) to post further evidence. What I am going to do in a next future.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

klewis
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Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by klewis » Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:53 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:56 pm
If the birth of the Son is in heaven, then the mother can't be the earthly mother named Mary of later Gospels, sorry. Is this a case where you read Revelation with the Gospel-coloured glasses?

I fear that is the case.
Perhaps the imagery comes from somewhere outside of the Gospels?

Such as a conflation of Genesis 37:9 and Isaiah 7:14

Genesis 37:9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son

Nasruddin
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Nasruddin » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:11 pm

klewis wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:53 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:56 pm
If the birth of the Son is in heaven, then the mother can't be the earthly mother named Mary of later Gospels, sorry. Is this a case where you read Revelation with the Gospel-coloured glasses?

I fear that is the case.
Perhaps the imagery comes from somewhere outside of the Gospels?

Such as a conflation of Genesis 37:9 and Isaiah 7:14

Genesis 37:9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son
Or maybe the Song of Songs 6:10
Who is this that appears like the dawn, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, majestic as the stars in procession?

The sexual language in the Song of Songs might have led the author of Revelation to describe the celestial mother who became the whore of Babylon in a similar way.

The character of Jezebel in Rev. chapter 2 also has a relationship here. The Song of Songs is supposedly about Solomon and his lover. Since Solomon was King of Israel, his lover was the Queen. Jezebel was also a Queen of Israel, and might be seen by the author of Revelation as another corrupting lover of the king. The wives of Solomon, Jezebel wife of King Ahab, Jezebel of Thyatira, and the whore of Babylon (in some translations) are called idolaters/fornicators.

The whore of Babylon's attitude in Rev 18:7 -
In her heart she boasts, ‘I sit enthroned as queen. I am not a widow; I will never mourn"
is similar in vein to that of Jezebel in 2 Kings 9:30-31
When Jezebel heard about it, she put on eye makeup, arranged her hair and looked out of a window. As Jehu entered the gate, she asked, “Have you come in peace, you Zimri, you murderer of your master?”

Babylon in Revelations could well refer to Jerusalem, and the 12 stars of the celestial mother a reference to the 12 tribes of Israel (as klewis posited). Therefore the whore of Babylon is a Queen of Jerusalem who turned away from worshipping God. The "New Jersualem" is the faithful bride of the Lamb, replacing the old Jerusalem/the whore of Babylon; the bride who was finally rejected.

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