The Paraclite is Marcion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:59 pm

Nasruddin wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:20 pm
Your interpretation of Revelations has been abandoned
I continue to think that the Samaritan village episode (and the name "Boanerghes") in Luke is a parody against the two witnesses of Revelation and their power of throwing fire from heaven.

For the rest, I should think more. I am not dogmatic about this. Where I are strongly dogmatic, in the matter of Gospels, is only in the view that the Barabbas episode is a caustic parody against early Christian deniers that Jesus the Son of Father is the Jewish Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Nasruddin » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:48 am

Mark 12:19-22
“Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no offspring. And the second took her, and died, leaving no offspring. And the third likewise. And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman also died.

Mark 16:9
Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

Tobit 3:8-10
Now it happened on the same day, that Sara daughter of Raguel, in Rages a city of the Medes, received a reproach from one of her father's servant maids, because she had been given to seven husbands, and a devil named Asmodeus had killed them, at their first going in unto her. So when she reproved the maid for her fault, she answered her, saying: "May we never see son, or daughter of thee upon the earth, thou murderer of thy husbands. Wilt thou kill me also, as thou hast already killed seven husbands?"

Tobit 6:14
Then Tobias answered, and said: I hear that she hath been given to seven husbands, and they all died: moreover I have heard, that a devil killed them.

So Mary Magdalen is like Sara. Married 7 times to 7 brothers, but possessed by a demon each time and her husbands die. Jesus, like Tobias, cast out these 7 demons that killed her husbands, and became her next bridegroom.

Sara, through Tobias, became the mother of 7 men. -
Tobit 14:5 he called unto him his son Tobias and his children, seven young men, his grandsons,

Mary/Sara is the mother in Revelation who sits on the beast -
Rev 12:5-6
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days

Rev 17:3
And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast

Rev 17:8-11
When I saw her, I marveled greatly. But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.

Mary/Sara sits on seven mountains/kings [husbands/seven brothers], and an eighth who belongs to the seven [an eighth husband/Jesus] is one who was, and is not, and shall be and arises from the bottomless pit [he was alive, died, and then rose from the grave].

Giuseppe
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:40 am

Lycophron called Helen (of which Sophia is the reincarnation):

"the bacchante with five beds": as a goddess, her husband was Zeus, Endymion, Helios, Museum and Pan; as a mortal, her husbands were Theseus, Menelaus, Paris, Diphobe and Achilles. Her sixth companion was the god Eshmoûn, manifested in the form of his son Simon (=euhemerized as Simon Magus).

Another interpretation:

the woman who speaks to Jesus in Sychar is Samaria herself, who "married" the five gods of Assyria and who has now given herself to simonism, but who is going to have Christianity as her sixth husband.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Peter Kirby
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Peter Kirby » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:13 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:59 pm
Nasruddin, the fact that you are a mere Christian apologist is proved by your natural reluctance to see these 7 thunders behind the 7 demons inside Mary of Magdala before Jesus exorcized them from her.

The Samaritan village episode in Luke is a not so implicit polemic against the two witnesses of Revelation.

Frankly, I would like not talk with you about this topic. You are totally unable to do serious free research under the Christ Myth theory.
This is ad hominem and illogical at that.

Non-Christians can also have "reluctance" about adopting your interpretations, and they do.

Christians are highly encouraged to contribute on the forum and may be critical of opinions on the forum, just like everyone else.

Everyone on the forum is also encouraged to consider all sides on controversial issues, including the Christ Myth hypothesis.

There's no sacred cow in the Christ Myth hypothesis, and rejecting it or being a Christian is fine. You can still be intelligent and make reasoned arguments as a Christian. Believe it or not, some Christians are smarter and better critical thinkers than a lot of atheists, even when talking about the subjects of the New Testament and ancient Christianity.

I keep saying "Christian" because you've been calling anyone suspected of being Christian an "apologist" and anyone suspected of that a "liar," which just shows your own bias and an inability to consider things from another person's perspective, thus underlining one way we benefit from having Christians on the forum - they might disagree with other people here, and that's a good thing for discussion and critical inquiry.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown

Giuseppe
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:32 am

Peter Kirby wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:13 pm
which just shows your own bias and an inability to consider things from another person's perspective
I confirm fully this judgement about myself. But only as a mere fact. Not as a constructive or negative criticism. Put bluntly, I want that the my interlocutor knows in advance that I am dogmatic about only some conclusions.

To avoid implicit attempts of conversion by the same interlocutors.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Nasruddin » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:25 am

Name calling is the weakest form of argument. I am not a Christian, nor a Christian apologist. But whatever my faith or philosophy, it should not stop you, Giuseppe, from engaging with me. I am responding to your posts with relevance, counter-points and different perspectives. Disagreement is not the same as opposition. Your self proclaimed dogma, however, exposes your bias, blindness and inability to logically engage on a forum without the danger of proseltysing.

Giuseppe
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:18 am

Where I disagree with you in this thread is in the claim to interpret GJohn by using passages from Revelation, when it is evident that these two books come from rival worlds and were absolutely not allies bwtween them.

You are giving midrashical reasons to explain Magdalene etc, and I am OK with that.

Only, I am giving a modest warning: behind Magdalene there may be a different version of Mary mother of Jesus, only, one condemned as prostitute. Note that even in our Mark, the Magdalene replaces polemically Mary insofar Magdalene is found at the tomb, differently from Mary.

I think that an inquiry is necessary along the line Mary as Sophia , prostitute as mother (remember the Gnostic contempt of generation), and mother as prostitute (since Jesus had to have apparently a Jewish mother to be shown as the Jewish messiah). At moment, I can give only some clues about that view. Hence, being my position only one still in costruction, I can only show my perplexity before your reduction of the episodes to mere midrash from OT, ignoring again and again the polemical nature of the our texts.

If a prostitute is there, then she serves to insult someone. But who?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Nasruddin » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:29 pm

As I pointed out -

Rev 12:5-6
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days

Rev 17:3
And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast.

But also -

Rev 12:13-15
So when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. Then from his mouth the serpent poured water like a river after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood.

Rev 17:1 & 15
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great whore who is seated on many waters,
...And he said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the whore is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.

The mother and the whore are connected.
The mother of Jesus, the bastard child, was a whore for having sex out of wedlock, regardless of who the father was said to be. It should be noted that Matthew pointedly lists those female ancestors of Jesus who were whores by having adulterous or unlawful sex - Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, Uriah's wife, and lastly Mary.

Giuseppe
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:56 pm

If the birth of the Son is in heaven, then the mother can't be the earthly mother named Mary of later Gospels, sorry. Is this a case where you read Revelation with the Gospel-coloured glasses?

I fear that is the case.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: The Paraclite is Marcion

Post by Nasruddin » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:24 am

You are still possessed of the delusion that I am a Christian apologist. Do you really think I take the New Testament as literal truth? Or that I am unaware that it is a collection of works that were not written to be a collection of works?

But you are quite right about the birth. The woman gave birth in Heaven and was seperated from the child. The child was raised up to a heavenly throne and the mother was sent to the wilderness on earth, where the dragon later pursued her. The dragon, having earlier failed to harm the child, also fails to harm the mother, but then persecutes the rest of her children.

This is the story adapted into Matthew chapter 2 - Mary gives birth to Jesus and a star rises up to heaven (seen by the magi- "we observed his star at its rising"). The dragon (Herod) plots to kill the child, but the mother flees (this time with the child) whilst Herod, unable to assault the child or mother, kills lots of other children.

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