Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

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Giuseppe
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:19 pm

The two thieves were Moses and Elijah since Jesus was buying from them, both talking in the name of the demiurge, the souls of the Sheol.

If the Transfiguration episode was a post-Resurrection event, the voice from the cloud could represent the conversion of the demiurge: he recognizes that Jesus has any right to buy the his souls, emptying the Sheol of the creator. Hence the voice is addressed to Elijah and Moses: end the contract.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:28 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:19 pm
The two thieves were Moses and Elijah since Jesus was buying from them, both talking in the name of the demiurge, the souls of the Sheol.

All who have come before me are thieves and robbers , but the sheep have not listened to them.

(John 10:8)

If the voice came from the Alien God, then "the sheep have not listened to them", i.e. Moses and Elijah.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

davidmartin
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by davidmartin » Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:26 am

error. Moses and Elijah are required both because the editor will add the two thieves in their place, when the crucifixion will become an earthly one.
The editor added Moses but Elijah was already there. Moses being there doesn't make sense except to make Jesus appear pro literal-Torah (he was pro-spiritual Torah only)
The two thieves represent two other Christ claimants that was a way to whack Christians who believed in more than one, they are the same figures who appear in the resurrection tomb though, so these resurrection accounts try to rectify the problems in the crucifixion accounts

The 'thieves and robbers' you are correct in saying is the Hebrew prophets. This is from John's gospel which was starting to get more Gnostic
I believe there was an earlier phase that was not so dualistic as you maintain or John presents, which still has Gnosis but not really Gnostic per se. It wanted reform not complete rejection but there is a fine line between the two. Wisdom goes for reform... Sophia is blamed for that by the Gnostics. It is unreformable to them... but wisdom thinks that it can be saved and should be because of the nature of the spirit in matter. The demiurge prefers opposition to reform, let that sink in

Giuseppe
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:07 pm

The Arabic Diatessaron is interesting for this thread:

And after six days Jesus took Simon Cephas, and James, and John his brother, 3 and brought them up into a high mountain, the three of them only. And while they 4 were praying, Jesus changed, and became after the fashion of another person; and his face shone like the sun, and his raiment was very white like the snow, and as 5 the light of lightning, so that nothing on earth can whiten like it. And there appeared unto him Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus. And they thought that the time 7 of his decease which was to be accomplished at Jerusalem was come. And Simon and those that were with him were heavy in the drowsiness of steep; and with effort they roused themselves, and saw his glory, and those two men that were standing with him. 8 Arabic. And when they began to depart from him, Simon said unto Jesus, My 9 Master, it is good for us to be here: and if thou wilt, we will make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah; not know- ing what he said, because of the fear which took possession of them. And while he was yet saying that, a bright cloud overshadowed them. And when they saw Moses and Elijah that they had entered into that cloud, they feared again. And a voice was heard out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son, whom I have chosen; hear ye therefore him. And when this voice was heard, Jesus was found alone. And the disciples, when they heard the voice, fell on their faces from the fear which took hold of them. And Jesus came and touched them and said, Arise, be not afraid. And they lifted up their eyes, and saw Jesus as he was.


"They" are Moses and Elijah, not the 3 Pillars. Hence in the original transfiguration episode, it was not Peter "who didn't know what he was saying", but Moses and Elijah.

They believed wrongly that the Transfiguration was an allegory, given in advance, of the future death of Jesus on earth in Jerusalem, while it was the original crucifixion...

...in outer space.

On a cross of Glory.

The Judaizing editor replaced Peter in the place of Moses and Elijah as the guy who was victim of wrong views about the real happenings on the mount. And he was moved to add the 2 thieves to replace Moses and Elijah as the 2 guys who didn't realize the true identity of the crucified just when that same crucifixion was happening under their eyes.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Nasruddin » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:50 pm

A voice from Heaven spoke at both the baptism of Jesus and at the transfiguration. These are the only times this occurs in the Synoptic Gospels. Clearly there is a link.

Baptism:
Matthew 3:16-17
At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.
Mark 1:10-11
Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.
Luke 3:21-22
And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

These words are similar to those spoken at the Transfiguration;
Matthew 17:5
He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.
Mark 9:7
Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!
Luke 9:34-35
While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.

At the transfiguration there is this extra command to listen to Jesus (ironically interrupting Jesus at the same time), and whilst at the baptism the clouds opened and made Jesus clearly visible by a sign, at the transfiguration a cloud descended and hid Jesus.

And who was present at the transfiguration? - Elijah the Prophet and Moses the Lawgiver.
Who was present at the baptism? - John the Baptist (Elijah), and the Pharisees and Sadduccees (Lawgivers).
(Matthew 3:7 he [John] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing,)
(John 1:19 & 26 Now this was John’s [i.e. Elijah] testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites [i.e. Moses] to ask him who he was....John replied, “but among you stands one [i.e Jesus] you do not know.)

Who else was at the Transfiguration? - Simon, James and John. According to the Synoptic Gospels, and in particular Luke 5:5-11, these were Jesus' first disciples. But according to the Gospel of John 1:35-43, the first three disciples of Jesus were Andrew, Simon and Phillip. Andrew and Philip in particular were the two disciples of John the Baptist in John 1:35, and have Greek names. They were the very first to follow Jesus. The Synoptic Gospels however drops them from the story, and replaces them with John and James, both Hebrew names, who had no connection to John the Baptist. Simon is still there, but any link with John the Baptist is ignored.

The baptism/transfiguration seem to be the same story in the Synoptic Gospels, with Elijah = John, and Moses = religious leaders.

Now the Gospel of John does not have the baptism or the transfiguration, but is does have a voice from heaven -
John 12:23 & 28-29 & 36 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified"...Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine."..."Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

Is this the origin of the Transfiguration event - a voice announces that Jesus has been chosen, and Jesus tells the crowd to listen; Jesus is then hidden?

Who was there at this event?
John 12:20-21 Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the festival. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. “Sir,” they said, “we would like to see Jesus.” Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.

So the very first disciples of Jesus (disciples of John the Baptist) were at this proto-transfiguration event. Just as the Synoptic Gospels claim it was the first disciples of Jesus who were present at the transfiguration.

So how did Simon, James and John get involved? The clue is in their names.
Mark 3:17- James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he [Jesus] gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”,
Genesis 29:33 - Rachel conceived again, and when she gave birth to a son she said, “Because the Lord heard that I am not loved, he gave me this one too.” So she named him Simeon. [meaning to listen]
The original voice from heaven event in the Gospel of John sounded like thunder, and the crowd were exhorted to listen and become children of light. Children of light became children of thunder = James and John. Listening is a key command = Simeon (Simon).

So could Philip and Andrew be the origin of the figures of Elijah and Moses? In the Synoptic Gospels the witnesses to the event (the disciples) see Elijah and Moses talking with Jesus, and in John it is Philip and Andrew who the witnesses (the Greek crowd) see talking with Jesus. Maybe the transition occured via the words of Phillip, referring to himself and Andrew in John 1:44 “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote" - the Law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah).
Last edited by Nasruddin on Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Giuseppe
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:30 pm

Nasruddin wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:50 pm
And who was present at the transfiguration? - Elijah the Prophet and Moses the Lawgiver.
Who was present at the baptism? - John the Baptist (Elijah), and the Pharisees and Sadduccees (Lawgivers).
it doesn't work. In Mark there is not even a clue of the presence of Pharisees and Sadduccees at the Baptism. And Matthew is an apologetical corruption of Mark (no wonder you like Matthew).

But they, as allegories of the OT Prophets, were found in Sheol when the Marcion's Christ descended there (Capernaum = Sheol).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Nasruddin » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:06 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:30 pm
Nasruddin wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:50 pm
And who was present at the transfiguration? - Elijah the Prophet and Moses the Lawgiver.
Who was present at the baptism? - John the Baptist (Elijah), and the Pharisees and Sadduccees (Lawgivers).
it doesn't work. In Mark there is not even a clue of the presence of Pharisees and Sadduccees at the Baptism. And Matthew is an apologetical corruption of Mark (no wonder you like Matthew).

But they, as allegories of the OT Prophets, were found in Sheol when the Marcion's Christ descended there (Capernaum = Sheol).
They are mentioned in the Gospel of John 1:19 & 26
Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was....John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know."
John the Baptist = Elijah. The priests and Levites = Moses. They talk together and Jesus is hidden.

In the Gospel of Mark the people present are mentioned at Mark 1:5
And people from the whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him,

The people in the countryside signify the prophets (the voice in the wilderness = Elijah). The people of Jerusalem signify the law givers (where the Priests and Temple were = Moses)

Giuseppe
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:03 pm

Nasruddin wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:06 pm
John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know."
John the Baptist = Elijah. The priests and Levites = Moses. They talk together and Jesus is hidden.
that verse means that Jesus is not a Jew but an alien Son of Father ("Bar-Abbas"). You are interpreting tendentiously it to mean that Jesus was a Jew and even a Pharisee!!
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Nasruddin » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:08 pm

John is talking to those sent by the Pharisees, saying that Jesus is among them, but that they are unaware of who he is. They do not know him. John claimed that he had been sent to baptize at the Jordan inorder for him to see the Spirit descend on someone he did not yet know himself. It was only after talking with the Pharisees, and seeing Jesus for the first time among them, that John later saw the Spirit descend on him and revealled who Jesus was, by pointing him out as The Lamb of God to his own disciples.

Jesus repeatedly tells the Pharisees that they do not know him, or the Pharisees themselves say they do not know him.
John 8:19 - Jesus answered [the Pharisees], ‘You know neither me nor my Father.'
John 9:29 - [The Pharisees said] We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man [Jesus], we do not know where he comes from.
John 16:3 - And they [the Pharisees] will do this because they have not known the Father or me.

In John this ignorance is classed as a fault - a sign of the Pharisee's stubborn disbelief in Jesus. Yet John himself did not know him until a prearranged sign revealed it.

However in Mark, Jesus himself wishes his activity to stay hidden.
Mark 3:12 - But he sternly ordered them not to make him known.
Mark 5:43 - He strictly ordered them that no one should know this,
Mark 7:24 - He entered a house and did not want anyone to know he was there.
Mark 7:36 - Then Jesus ordered them to tell no one
Mark 8:30 - And he sternly ordered them not to tell anyone about him.
Mark 9:9 - As they were coming down the mountain, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen
Mark 9:30 - They went on from there and passed through Galilee. He did not want anyone to know it;

In Mark also, the first ones who seem to know the true nature of Jesus are not the holy and wise, but are evil spirits.
Mark 1:23-24 - Just then there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit, and he cried out, ‘What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.
Mark 1:34 - And he healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons. And he would not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him.
Mark 3:11-12 - Whenever the unclean spirits saw him, they fell down before him and shouted, ‘You are the Son of God!’ But he sternly ordered them not to make him known.
Mark 5:2, 6-7 - A man out of the tombs with an unclean spirit met him...When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and bowed down before him; and he shouted at the top of his voice, ‘What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?

Curiously the one disciple who first acknowledged Jesus was Simon. Jesus then tells him to keep this a secret, and even labels him as an unclean spirit!
Mark 8; 29-33 And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him. And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he said this plainly. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan!"

So in John the first proclaimers of Jesus are John the Baptist and his followers (Phillip, Andrew and Simon). But in Mark it is evil and unclean spirits who recognise Jesus first, and who Jesus then cast away (rejects them and tells them to be silent). Does Jesus cast away John the Baptist and his disciples? Or is it Simon Peter himself who later denies that he knows Jesus? - Mark 14:71 [Simon Peter says]“I do not know this man [Jesus] of whom you speak.”

Giuseppe
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:05 pm

Nasruddin wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:08 pm
John is talking to those sent by the Pharisees, saying that Jesus is among them, but that they are unaware of who he is.
You can't use that passage to infer that Jesus was a Jew in proto-John, since it is evidence that Jesus was totally alien for the Jews despite of the his being in that moment already among them. I had written in my previous post:
Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:03 pm
Nasruddin wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:06 pm
John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know."
John the Baptist = Elijah. The priests and Levites = Moses. They talk together and Jesus is hidden.
that verse means that Jesus is not a Jew but an alien Son of Father ("Bar-Abbas"). You are interpreting tendentiously it to mean that Jesus was a Jew and even a Pharisee!!
Therefore I ignore the rest of the your Christian commentary of John.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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