Nasruddin wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:39 am
So you agree with John 1:1-2, 14
In the beginning was the Word
no, originally there was the Light
in the place of the Word.
, ignoring Charles Wilson.
However John 1:29-33 has John saying;
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks ahead of me because he was before me.’ I myself did not know him; but I came baptizing with water for this reason, that he might be revealed to Israel.” And John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I myself have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God.”
Now John is clearly conversant with the God who sent him to baptise and reveal who Jesus was. But he admits that he did not know Jesus, just like the Jews from Jerusalem did not know Jesus. Whether or not those Jews shared the same 'God' that John claimed had sent him to testify is not the focus in this context. Jesus is the focus, and his identity as the Son/Lamb of God.
I and Turmel disagree. "The Lamb" is an interpolation replacing the original "son of God". It is an interpolation meant to make proto-John more similar to Revelation to put catholically the two books under the paternity of the same author (John son of Zebedee). That is also the reason why the gospel of John was preserved (because otherwise, without sharing that paternity, it would have been lost).
Later Jesus claims that he and his father are one, and that the Pharisees do not know him or his father. But that is a different context with a different focus.
no, the theme of Jesus being totally alien to Jews is everywhere
in proto-John. There are a lot of passages where Jesus claims the his being alien in opposition to all the OT prophets and even Moses. The evidence is there and Turmel has fixed the point. No need of further analysis, for me.
John knows that he is an alien. This is only a partial revelation. Too few to conclude: John "knows" him.
And it is even doubt that John was a positive character in proto-John. You know what I have written in the thread on the Cathar tradition
about John as a kind of instigator sent by the demiurge. In that case, John knows that Jesus is alien but his true mission is to point out falsely him as "Lamb of God" to move the Jews to kill him. As sacrifice for the demiurge.