Marcion's Gospel

[Secret Alias]

For instance you assert "I have a huge problem accepting the idea that NT writings were 'Judaized' in order to counter Marcion." Do you know where this claim is made? Do you know what texts were used to formulate this is what Marcionites must have believed? These are important details. Most important of all you have to uncover how close is Tertullian to first knowledge of Marcionism. Is it first-hand, second-hand or even third-hand information? Please read the first five chapters of Book 4 and the first two of Book 5. That would help you gain some context here.

[John2]

So not reading Tertullian won't effect your ability to participate in a discussion about Marcion? Have you even read the first 5 chapters of Book 4 of Against Marcion?

Yes, and when I feel like commenting on Terullian I will.

[John2]

For instance you assert "I have a huge problem accepting the idea that NT writings were 'Judaized' in order to counter Marcion." Do you know where this claim is made? Do you know what texts were used to formulate this is what Marcionites must have believed? These are important details. Most important of all you have to uncover how close is Tertullian to first knowledge of Marcionism. Is it first-hand, second-hand or even third-hand information? Please read the first five chapters of Book 4 and the first two of Book 5. That would help you gain some context here.

I think that can be inferred from Justin's remark that Marcion was "teaching men to deny that God is the maker of all things in heaven and on earth, and that the Christ predicted by the prophets is His Son, and preaches another god besides the Creator of all, and likewise another son."

[Secret Alias]

So talking about Justin - a source who tells us nothing about the Marcionite gospel - is in your estimation the right place to move on from my summary of Against Marcion? Why is that? You're not smart enough to follow this:

TERTULLIAN WROTE A BOOK WHICH DISPROVED MARCION'S ANTITHESES FROM THE PARTS OF LUKE MARCION RETAINED

BECAUSE

MARCION STOLE LUKE AND FALSIFIED PASSAGES IN ORDER TO MAKE A GOSPEL TO SUPPORT HIS ANTITHESES.

It's pretty straightforward. I will break it up for you:

TERTULLIAN WROTE A BOOK WHICH DISPROVED MARCION'S ANTITHESES

You get that much right? Against Marcion is not really about the Marcionite canon but his antitheses a work which he placed at the front of a collection of writings from which he argued that the two testaments came from two different gods.

TERTULLIAN WROTE A BOOK WHICH DISPROVED MARCION'S ANTITHESES FROM THE PARTS OF LUKE MARCION RETAINED

This is said explicitly at 4.6.1. He isn't telling us what the Marcionite gospel looks like. He's not arguing from the Marcionite gospel. Instead he says he will argue from the part of Luke that are left over after Marcionite excision. Do you understand that now?

TERTULLIAN WROTE A BOOK WHICH DISPROVED MARCION'S ANTITHESES FROM THE PARTS OF LUKE MARCION RETAINED

BECAUSE

The 'because' is here because we are going to try and justify why he would try to disprove the antitheses from Luke, that isn't immediately clear or sensible.

TERTULLIAN WROTE A BOOK WHICH DISPROVED MARCION'S ANTITHESES FROM THE PARTS OF LUKE MARCION RETAINED

BECAUSE

MARCION STOLE LUKE AND FALSIFIED PASSAGES

The justification for arguing out of the parts of Luke left over after Marcion's excision seems to have something to do with an underlying connection between the antitheses and the gospel. In other words, Tertullian argues that Marcion removed things (like Matthew 5:17) from his gospel because it would contradict the central premise of his 'antitheses.' That's how we arrive at the whole formulation:

TERTULLIAN WROTE A BOOK WHICH DISPROVED MARCION'S ANTITHESES FROM THE PARTS OF LUKE MARCION RETAINED

BECAUSE

MARCION STOLE LUKE AND FALSIFIED PASSAGES IN ORDER TO MAKE A GOSPEL TO SUPPORT HIS ANTITHESES.

[Secret Alias]

What I have just isolated for you is the 'literary purpose' of Book 4 of Tertullian's Against Marcion as stated repeatedly in the first six chapters of the book (after chapter 7 the book goes through the gospel almost chapter by chapter).

[Secret Alias]

To that end it should be clear that the author does not claim to present the reader with the actual gospel of Marcion but rather a kind of 'shadow' of that text by assuming or taking into account a 'falsification' took place with Luke. So in essence the author is citing from a reduced portion of his own gospel of Luke rather than giving us 'pure Marcion.' Does that now make sense for you?

[John2]

As I said, I'm not able to follow anything Stephan says about Marcion, and I'm not going to get entangled in a discussion with him about what is on his mind at the moment (Terullian, though he is of course free to continue with that), since I think the next best source for Marcion after Justin (and Hegesippus) is Irenaeus, and I'm intrigued by something he says in AH 1.27.4 that I want to investigate in the authors I mentioned above and in what Irenaeus says later. For now though I post it to have as a reference.

But since this man is the only one who has dared openly to mutilate the Scriptures, and unblushingly above all others to inveigh against God, I purpose specially to refute him, convicting him out of his own writings; and, with the help of God, I shall overthrow him out of those discourses of the Lord and the apostles, which are of authority with him, and of which he makes use.

[Secret Alias]

I'm not able to follow anything Stephan says about Marcion

What don't you understand? I speak and write in English. I wrote a sentence which summarized the methodology of Book 4. I fail to see given that there were no 'big words' why you can't understand a sentence:

TERTULLIAN WROTE A BOOK WHICH DISPROVED MARCION'S ANTITHESES FROM THE PARTS OF LUKE MARCION RETAINED

BECAUSE

MARCION STOLE LUKE AND FALSIFIED PASSAGES IN ORDER TO MAKE A GOSPEL TO SUPPORT HIS ANTITHESES.

Let me try to modify it some more:

Against Marcion tries to disprove the antitheses of Marcion from the parts of Luke which Marcion retained after stealing the gospel of Luke.

That is 23 words. The longest word in that sentence is 11 letters long 'antitheses.' Do you know what 'antitheses' means? This is very easy to understand.

[Secret Alias]

Against Marcion was written to disprove the 'antitheses' of Marcion from the parts of Luke which Marcion retained after stealing and falsifying the gospel of Luke.

That's 26 words with the longest word at 11 letters long. Here's a glossary of terms:

against - in opposition to.
Marcion - a heretic of the second century.
was - first and third person singular past of be.
written - past participle of write.
to - expressing motion in the direction of (a particular location).
disprove - prove that (something) is false.

[Ben C. Smith]

Does anyone dispute my summary here?

For the record, yes: absolutely. On tons of points. But you and I have already been through many of them before, and neither of us seems to be persuaded by the other side on those, so I doubt the remaining disputes stand much of a chance of agreement.