Justin Martyr

[Kris]

What is Justin talking about when he refers to the rabbis knowing that this verse relates to the "Christ"? He goes on to say that they don't think he has come, or at least hadn't been revealed so was he just confusing Christ with the Jewish messiah concept?:
CHAPTER CIX -- THE CONVERSION OF THE GENTILES HAS BEEN PREDICTED BY MICAH.

"But that the Gentiles would repent of the evil in which they led erring lives, when they heard the doctrine preached by His apostles from Jerusalem, and which they learned through them, suffer me to show you by quoting a short statement from the prophecy of Micah, one of the twelve [minor prophets]. This is as follows: 'And in the last days the mountain of the Lord shall be manifest, established on the top of the mountains; it shall be exalted above the hills, arid people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall go, and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and they shall enlighten us in His way, and we shall walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among many peoples, and shall rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into sickles: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. And each man shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree; and there shall be none to terrify: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it. For all people will walk in the name of their gods; but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will assemble her that is afflicted, and gather her that is driven out, and whom I had plagued; and I shall make her that is afflicted a remnant, and her that is oppressed a strong nation. And the Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from henceforth, and even for ever.' "

CHAPTER CX -- A PORTION OF THE PROPHECY ALREADY FULFILLED IN THE CHRISTIANS: THE REST SHALL BE FULFILLED AT THE SECOND ADVENT.

And when I had finished these words, I continued: "Now I am aware that your teachers, sirs, admit the whole of the words of this passage to refer to Christ; and I am likewise aware that they maintain He has not yet come; or if they say that He has come, they assert that it is not known who He is; but when He shall become manifest and glorious, then it shall be known who He is. And then, they say, the events mentioned in this passage shall happen, just as if there was no fruit as yet from the words of the prophecy. O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel; and we who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,--our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,--and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified; and sitting each under his vine, i.e., each man possessing his own married wife. For you are aware that the prophetic word says, 'And his wife shall be like a fruitful vine.' Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus. For Just as if one should cut away the fruit-bearing parts of a vine, it grows up again, and yields other branches flourishing and fruitful; even so the same thing happens with us. For the vine planted by God and Christ the Saviour is His people. But the rest of the prophecy shall be fulfilled at His second coming. For the expression, 'He that is afflicted [and driven out],' i.e., from the world, [implies] that, so far as you and all other men have it in your power, each Christian has been driven out not only from his own property, but even from the whole world; for you permit no Christian to live. But you say that the same fate has befallen your own nation. Now, if you have been cast out after defeat in battle, you have suffered such treatment justly indeed, as all the Scriptures bear witness; but we, though we have done no such [evil acts] after we knew the truth of God, are testified to by God, that, together with the most righteous, and only spotless and sinless Christ, we are taken away out of the earth. For Isaiah cries, 'Behold how the righteous perishes, and no man lays it to heart; and righteous men are taken away, and no man considers it.'

[Peter Kirby]

I wouldn't say "confusing" Christ with the Jewish messiah concept. He was writing in Greek. The word in Greek is Christ (i.e., XRISTOS, etc.). This word is found in the Septuagint in Daniel. Sometimes translators choose to translate this Greek word differently, but in the Roberts-Donaldson translation here they have consistently rendered it as Christ.

In the New Testament, only the Gospel of John ever makes a point of actually transliterating the word Messias, in the Greek, at John 1:41 and John 4:25. Every other book of the New Testament has the Greek word in all cases, even if it has been translated differently.

Here's a relevant post:
http://considerthegospel.org/blog/tag/s ... d-messiah/

[Kris]

Thanks for that information Peter. So, could it be that justin heard Jews talking about the Christ, that he assumed they were talking about Jesus-- yet they were talking about their own messiah--the one that was to come? It seems really clearing the later passages that the Jews did not see Jesus as the actual messiah--- I guess that is why these particular chapters were infusing to me!

[Peter Kirby]

The translation of Justin is often difficult to follow, and part of that is because Justin is himself rather difficult and prone to rambling without much of a coherent scheme to his presentation.

I think it's best to believe there is no misunderstanding at all. Justin's created the entire scene (with no more historical kernel than the dialogues of Socrates). Justin also came from Samaria and seems to have at least a solid basic understanding of Judaism. I don't believe that Justin was confused into believing that the Jews were talking about Jesus as Christ.

But, yes. Plenty of Jews at the time (and still now, if they aren't secular) believe in a Messiah to come. I'm not sure - does that answer your question?

[Kris]

Well when I first read this passage, I thought that Justin WAS trying to say that the Jewish teachers admitted that the previously mentioned verse talked about "Jesus Christ" but then the sentences immediately following certainly seemed to indicate otherwise. It seemed like justin used Jesus, Christ, and Jesus Christ when referring to Jesus--- so when he said Christ in this passage, I was confused. So, you think that when he referred to Christ in this particular passage, he is referring to the messiah in general--- and not specifically Jesus Christ-- he is simply asserting that the Jews saw this passage as messianic? And in the next few verses actually reject it being about Jesus. Sorry to be dense--but this stuff is so confusing for me!!

[Peter Kirby]

So, you think that when he referred to Christ in this particular passage, he is referring to the messiah in general--- and not specifically Jesus Christ-- he is simply asserting that the Jews saw this passage as messianic? And in the next few verses actually reject it being about Jesus. Sorry to be dense--but this stuff is so confusing for me!!

Not at all. Your summary seems spot on to me.