Where Mark is surely not marcionite: Mark 4:11-12

[Giuseppe]

I like a lot Mark in the points where it sounds so marcionite in spirit. When I say "marcionite in spirit", I admit both the possibilities (that Mark preceded and/or postdated Marcion).

For example: the Messianic Secret, the denial of davidic lineage, the polemic against judaizers, the unexpected coming of Jesus from Galilee.

In particular, compare Mark with Matthew about the sinedrites. Matthew breaks the Messianic Secret of Mark: the sinedrites know that Jesus is the davidic messiah and they kill Jesus precisely because they know that Jesus is the Messiah of YHWH. Matthew did so because he wanted absolute certainty about who Jesus really was: the son of YHWH and only and only of him.

From this POV, Mark didn't give still absolute certainty about the Jewishness of Jesus's messianic status. The his Messianic Secret could be used as a Gnostic argument against the demiurge.

But, apart the Barabbas episode (evidence of pure anti-marcionism), where Mark seems to reflect a subtle polemic against Marcion is in Mark 4:11-12.

Could a marcionite Jesus allow the disciples - even Judaizing disciples - to hide the his true identity? Wasn't the basic goal of marcionite Jesus to proclaim openly the his true identity, against the Judaizers?????

From this POV, the Jesus of the fourth gospel is what is more expected by what an alien would have done.

[davidmartin]

A bit off topic i just noticed this -

John the baptist is said "i baptize with water and after me he will baptize with the holy spirit"

Then Jesus is baptized and the holy spirit comes to him

So John does baptize in the holy spirit after all!

I think there was an attempt to deny John had the same baptism of Jesus and water only
But that is refuted when John's baptism of Jesus does what he says Jesus will do when he baptizes lol!!!
really that verse in Mark had to have been added later, as it makes more sense without it

[davidmartin]

Here's how the gospel of Mark might have looked originally
Note how Jesus is born during his baptism and using the Jewish meaning of days for years it's clear the wilderness is this world and the Spirit gives birth to him then and there.

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus

*Even as it is written in Isaiah the prophet, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Who shall prepare thy way. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight

John came, who baptized in the wilderness
And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan
And John was clothed with camel's hair, and had a leather girdle about his loins, and did eat grains cooked with wild honey.
And he preached, saying, There cometh after me he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him: And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased. This day have I given birth to you
And at once the Spirit bore him forth out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty years tested of Satan; And he was with the wild beasts; And the angels waited upon him.

Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn near

* I think this OT quote is authentic because it is wrong. That is from Malachi, so the author fluffed it up here.

[Giuseppe]

A bit off topic i just noticed this -

John the baptist is said "i baptize with water and after me he will baptize with the holy spirit"

Then Jesus is baptized and the holy spirit comes to him

So John does baptize in the holy spirit after all!

I think there was an attempt to deny John had the same baptism of Jesus and water only
But that is refuted when John's baptism of Jesus does what he says Jesus will do when he baptizes lol!!!

interesting.

I wonder how this may connect with the my amazing point:

Now, it is curious that the temptations in the wilderness happen as direct collateral effect of the escape from John's ray of action and knowledge. Jesus is tempted by the devil insofar John can still know him. The temptations ended suddenly only when the reader is 100% secured that John can't more know Jesus from the moment of the his arrest.

Again and again the John's knowledge about Jesus is embarrassing for Mark.