The crucifixion of the Teacher of Justice is meant in Rev 11:8

[Giuseppe]

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

(Rev 11:8)

They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

(Rev 11:2b)

"They" are the Romans of Pompeus. The two witnesses would be then two Essenian chiefs, crucified shortly after the crucifixion of the same Teacher of Justice.

[klewis]

The origin of much of the text is as follows:

In the first draft of Revelation (See https://drive.google.com/file/d/12JZcor ... uSXCx/view)

• The 42 months was derived from Ezekiel laying on one side and the other signifying the destruction / siege of Jerusalem (see page 43).
• The prophets idea came from Ezekiel 10 - 13 (see page 52 of the first draft).

In the second draft of Revelation (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rPbZyx ... qw2LE/view):

• The measuring of the temple and its trampling of it, came from Zechariah 2:1-4 (see page 118).
• The author of Revelation defined the prophets as two prophets. One representing Zerubbable and Joshua / Jesus (see pages 117-119).

This is not to say that what you propose, the author had in his mind when he created the text, but it is to point out that the text was derived through a process that had a life of its own, outside of what you are proposing.

[Ben C. Smith]

The two witnesses would be then two Essenian chiefs, crucified shortly after the crucifixion of the same Teacher of Justice.

What is the reference?

[Giuseppe]

What is the reference?

the my source says that Habakkuk Commentary 3:9-11 describes the same image of Revelation 11:7-8.

Hence the two witnesses had to be Essenians.

[klewis]

With that logic:

My wife told me not to go off half-cocked.

Therefore, I can assume that she served in the Revolutionary war using flintlocks.

[Ben C. Smith]

What is the reference?

the my source says that Habakkuk Commentary 3:9-11 describes the same image of Revelation 11:7-8.

Hence the two witnesses had to be Essenians.

What is your source?

The extant Habakkuk commentary/pesher scroll (1QpHab) does not cover chapter 3, and I cannot find any other references to Habakkuk 3 anywhere in Martínez & Tigchelaar. So perhaps 3.9-11 refers to lines 9-11 of column 3?

1QpHab, column 3, lines 8b-12a: 8b All of them come to use violence; the breath of 9 their faces is like the East wind. ~ Its inter[pretation] concerns the Kittim, who 10 trample the land with [their] horse[s] and their animals 11 and come from far off, from the islands of the sea, to devour all the nations, like an eagle, 12a insatiable.

Revelation 11.7-8: 7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

But what correspondence would be in view in that case?

[klewis]

Zechariah 2:1-5
1 Then I looked up, and there before me was a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2 I asked, “Where are you going?”
He answered me, “To measure Jerusalem, to find out how wide and how long it is.”
3 While the angel who was speaking to me was leaving, another angel came to meet him 4 and said to him: “Run, tell that young man, ‘Jerusalem will be a city without walls because of the great number of people and animals in it. 5 And I myself will be a wall of fire around it,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will be its glory within.’

Revelation 11:1-2
1: I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

[Ben C. Smith]

Zechariah 2:1-5
1 Then I looked up, and there before me was a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2 I asked, “Where are you going?”
He answered me, “To measure Jerusalem, to find out how wide and how long it is.”
3 While the angel who was speaking to me was leaving, another angel came to meet him 4 and said to him: “Run, tell that young man, ‘Jerusalem will be a city without walls because of the great number of people and animals in it. 5 And I myself will be a wall of fire around it,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will be its glory within.’

Revelation 11:1-2
1: I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

There is more to it than just Zechariah:

Revelation 11.1-2: 1 Then there was given me a reed [κάλαμος] like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the sanctuary of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.”

Ezekiel 40.1-4: 1 In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the Lord was upon me and He brought me there. 2 In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city. 3 So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring reed [κάλαμος] in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway. 4 The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

Daniel 8.13-14: 13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?” 14 He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.” / [OG:] 13 καὶ ἤκουον ἑτέρου ἁγίου λαλοῦντος καὶ εἶπεν ὁ ἕτερος τῷ φελμουνι τῷ λαλοῦντι, ἕως τίνος τὸ ὅραμα στήσεται καὶ ἡ θυσία ἡ ἀρθεῖσα καὶ ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐρημώσεως ἡ δοθεῖσα καὶ τὰ ἅγια ἐρημωθήσεται εἰς καταπάτημα; 14 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ἕως ἑσπέρας καὶ πρωὶ ἡμέραι δισχίλιαι τριακόσιαι καὶ καθαρισθήσεται τὸ ἅγιον. / [Theodotion:] 13 καὶ ἤκουσα ἑνὸς ἁγίου λαλοῦντος καὶ εἶπεν εἷς ἅγιος τῷ φελμουνι τῷ λαλοῦντι, ἕως πότε ἡ ὅρασις στήσεται ἡ θυσία ἡ ἀρθεῖσα καὶ ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐρημώσεως ἡ δοθεῖσα καὶ τὸ ἅγιον καὶ ἡ δύναμις συμπατηθήσεται; 14 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ἕως ἑσπέρας καὶ πρωὶ ἡμέραι δισχίλιαι καὶ τριακόσιαι καὶ καθαρισθήσεται τὸ ἅγιον.

Daniel 12.7: 7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

Luke 21.5-6, 20-24: 5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, 6 “As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down.” .... 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of her must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter her, 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations/gentiles; and Jerusalem will be trodden upon [πατουμένη] by the nations/gentiles until the times of the nations/gentiles are fulfilled.”

Revelation 11.1-2 entails the same kind of Danielic speculation so prevalent among the early Christians, with bits of other prophets thrown in as interpretative aids. 42 months = 3½ years = "time, times, and half a time" (= 1 + 2 + ½).

[klewis]

There is more to it than just Zechariah:

Absolutely, in my book I show the parts that come from:
Ezekiel and Isaiah (https://drive.google.com/file/d/12JZcor ... uSXCx/view for a snapshot of how Revelation added the two sources in), Daniel, Deuteronomy and Joshua (see https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qz41Uq ... sp=sharing), and Exodus.

Luke 21.5-6, 20-24: 5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, 6 “As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down.” .... 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of her must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter her, 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations/gentiles; and Jerusalem will be trodden upon [πατουμένη] by the nations/gentiles until the times of the nations/gentiles are fulfilled.”[/box]

Revelation 11.1-2 entails the same kind of Danielic speculation so prevalent among the early Christians, with bits of other prophets thrown in as interpretative aids. 42 months = 3½ years = "time, times, and half a time" (= 1 + 2 + ½).

For the Luke reference you gave, I mapped Revelation 11:7, 10-13 to Ezekiel 13:18-19, 23 (see (https://drive.google.com/file/d/12JZcor ... uSXCx/view page 52).

For the Daniel section, if you noticed the source of Daniel 7:25 is "time, times, and half a time", which is found in Rev 12:12. The 42 month inverted parallel derived from Zechariah chapters 2 to 4 used 42 months, 1260 days, 3 1/2 days. John simply expanded the 42 month parallel by switching the "time, times, and half a time" in Rev 13:5 with 42 months in Revelation 12:14 (see https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qz41Uq ... sp=sharing).

There is a lots of moving parts in chapter 11 of Revelation. One thing, I think we both can agree on is that it was not written in a single setting with a single purpose.

[Ben C. Smith]

There is a lots of moving parts in chapter 11 of Revelation. One thing, I think we both can agree on is that it was not written in a single setting with a single purpose.

Good overall coverage of the relevant passages. Thanks.

And yes, I agree it was probably not written all in one sitting. In fact, I suspect that some of those older exegetes are correct and the Apocalypse of John is a Jewish apocalypse swallowed up by and modified into a Christian apocalypse. (I think you, on the other hand, posit a single author throughout, but over the course of several/many years and rewrites.)