Why 1 Cor 11:23-26 is an interpolation

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Giuseppe
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Why 1 Cor 11:23-26 is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:27 am

There is a deliberate concordance between what the Gospel Jesus would have teached (before) and what the Risen Christ would have revealed (after).

What there was before the interpolation among the Christians was only a rite based on the cup.

The goal of the interpolator was to introduce the novelty: the rite based on the bread.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

davidmartin
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Re: Why 1 Cor 11:23-26 is an interpolation

Post by davidmartin » Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:37 am

Whats this is the Didache?
"As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and gathered together became one, so let Thy church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom, for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever."

on the mountains?
was there a messiah figure who died this way... it doesn't sound like Jesus

any connection to the Psalms of solomon?
And I had not long to wait before God showed me the insolent one
Slain on the mountains of Egypt,
Esteemed of less account than the least on land and sea;
His body, ( too,) borne hither and thither on the billows with much insolence,
With none to bury (him), because He had rejected him with dishonour.
He reflected not that he was man.
And reflected not on the latter end;
He said: I will be lord of land and sea;

i don't know of any messiah type figure who died on a mountain

John2
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Re: Why 1 Cor 11:23-26 is an interpolation

Post by John2 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:20 pm

davidmartin wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:37 am
Whats this is the Didache?
"As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and gathered together became one, so let Thy church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom, for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever."

on the mountains?
was there a messiah figure who died this way... it doesn't sound like Jesus

any connection to the Psalms of solomon?
And I had not long to wait before God showed me the insolent one
Slain on the mountains of Egypt,
Esteemed of less account than the least on land and sea;
His body, ( too,) borne hither and thither on the billows with much insolence,
With none to bury (him), because He had rejected him with dishonour.
He reflected not that he was man.
And reflected not on the latter end;
He said: I will be lord of land and sea;

i don't know of any messiah type figure who died on a mountain

I don't get the impression that the bread refers to Jesus (or any Messiah), but rather to the church. In other words, the church is being likened to bread, which had been scattered over the hills when it had been grown (as wheat) and then brought together (as bread).
Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom.
I'm just walking around, your city is a wonder town.

davidmartin
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Re: Why 1 Cor 11:23-26 is an interpolation

Post by davidmartin » Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:53 am

ok John2, i recant. on reflection i think you're right
i think as you say the bread reference may refer to the church and be an early witness to a more original eucharistic blessing

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Why 1 Cor 11:23-26 is an interpolation

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:17 am

davidmartin wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:53 am
ok John2, i recant. on reflection i think you're right
i think as you say the bread reference may refer to the church and be an early witness to a more original eucharistic blessing
That is definitely my impression. The Didache is more original, and the connection to Jesus' death was added later.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

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DCHindley
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Re: Why 1 Cor 11:23-26 is an interpolation

Post by DCHindley » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:54 am

davidmartin wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:53 am
ok John2, i recant. on reflection i think you're right
i think as you say the bread reference may refer to the church and be an early witness to a more original eucharistic blessing
Wheat was often used as a symbol.
Ignatius, Ep. to the Romans, 4:

1b Suffer me to become food for the wild beasts, through whose instrumentality it will be granted me to attain to God.

I am the wheat of God, and let me be ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ.
The Ignatian letters are often obscure in meaning. That 1st sentence seems to refer to martyrdom granting instant access to union with God, but the second one in which Ignatius identified himself with wheat is puzzling. The "bread of Christ" refers to Jesus' body in the Communion ritual (Mat 26:26 = Mark 14:22 = Luke 22:19 = 1 Cor 11:24), which would be made from ground wheat flour. Wild beasts do not normally eat bread or even wheat grains, so disparate ideas seem to be muddled together.

Them early Christians ...

DCH

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Giuseppe
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Re: Why 1 Cor 11:23-26 is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:32 am

The Didache's words:

We thank You, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant;

...are spoken about the bread, making it the substitute of the fruit of paradise (who symbolized the opening of eyes and the reception of gnosis by the God the Father).

The Didache is therefore the first attempt of judaization of the Gnostic exegesis of Genesis.

It is thanks to the interpolation in 1 Cor 11:23-26 that the "miracle" is happened, i.e. the passage from the cup and the bread as symbols respectively of Church and Gnosis to the cup and bread as symbols of blood and flesh of Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Why 1 Cor 11:23-26 is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:42 am

The Supper was not the original tradition.

The original tradition was only the words on the cup ("I don't drink more… ...until…").

These words were removed from the his original context (the supper with Simon the Leper)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5888

... and placed in the Last Supper of the our gospels.

Jesus meant only that cup as the original only item found in Mark 10:38-39.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Why 1 Cor 11:23-26 is an interpolation

Post by Giuseppe » Thu May 21, 2020 11:42 pm


Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way. First, concerning the cup:
We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever..
And concerning the broken bread:
We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever..
But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... berts.html

The metaphor of the klasma scattered over the hills etc antedates any Gospel account of the miracle of the loaves and fishes. In origin it stems from the age-long myth of the death and resurrection of nature, a reenactment of dispersion and reassembly. I think about the myth of body of the deity who is dismembered and then recomposed. The Jews return again and again to the theme of dispersion and reassembly and always in pastoral terms: the flock scattered over the hills and the shepherd who accomplishes their ultimate herding.

Hence the original prayer of Didache followed the pastoral motif. This interpretation is the only one which makes sense: for sheep, not corn, are scattered over the hills and mountains. Paul reinterprets this notion in his cup-bread passage: for him, the many become as one loaf.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Why 1 Cor 11:23-26 is an interpolation

Post by Charles Wilson » Fri May 22, 2020 3:39 am

Dio, Epitome 64:

"As often as the moon shone out (it was constantly being concealed by numerous clouds of all shapes that kept passing in front of it), one might have seen them sometimes fighting, sometimes standing and leaning on their spears or even sitting down. Now they would all shout together on one side the name of Vespasian and on the other side that of Vitellius, and they would challenge each other in turn, indulging in abuse or in praise of the one leader or the other. Again one soldier would have a private conversation with an opponent: "Comrade, fellow-citizen, what are we doing? Why are we fighting? Come over to my side." "No, indeed! You come to my side." But what is there surprising about this, considering that when the women of the city in the course of the night brought food and drink to give to the soldiers of Vitellius, the latter, after eating and drinking themselves, passed the supplies on to their antagonists? One of them would call out the name of his adversary (for they practically all knew one another and were well acquainted) and would say: "Comrade, take and eat this; I give you, not a sword, but bread. Take and drink this; I hold out to you, not a shield, but a cup. Thus, whether you kill me or I you, we shall quit life more comfortably, and the hand that slays will not be feeble and nerveless, whether it be yours that smites me or mine that smites you. For these are the meats of consecration that Vitellius and Vespasian give us while we are yet alive, in order that they may offer us as a sacrifice to the dead slain long since." "

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