Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:27 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:42 pm
G,

I'm not sure why you defined Gnostics as "haters of YHWH."
I see that that particular feature - the Gnostic hostility against the creator, against that creator - is useful to interpret a lot of Gospel passages. For example, the strange rivalry of Jesus against his family seems to allegorize the rivalry of Sabaoth (a repented demiurge) against his father Yaldabaoth and his mother Sophia. For example, the Barabbas episode (where two Sons and two Fathers are in conflict between them).

At any case, while I think that the my theorem is solid about this my approach to texts, where I admit to have serious difficulty is about the enigmatic figure of John the Baptist. I will talk about him in another thread.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

perseusomega9
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by perseusomega9 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:47 am

Please don't

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:33 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:28 am
well then, I can correct the my definition above to satisfy Joseph D.L.
Gnostic = Ophite, Naassene, Cainite.

Are you happy, now?
I'm never happy.

There is no evidence that these groups had a hatred for YHWH, and that the Naassenes were believed to be Jamesian makes that supposition all the less likely. Viewing YHWH as lesser or submissive to a higher power does not denote or imply a hatred for him.

And your incessant twisting of words and history to fit your idiotic theories is why you will always fail.
Niente è ingannevole o depravato come Guiseppe.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:34 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:33 pm
that the Naassenes were believed to be Jamesian makes that supposition all the less likely.
who is more Jewish-Christian (=adorer of YHWH) than John the Baptist?

Even so, the Mandeans (famous for their hatred against YHWH and Jesus) adored John the Baptist.

Hence your argument is wrong (as usual).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:46 pm

John the Baptist is a non-existent entity to Jewish Christians. It was only necessary to include him as a proxy for Paul's baptism by the proto-Orthodoxy, and Theudas, an obvious reason why Jewish Christians would reject John the Baptist.

Jamesians didn't hate YHWH. And Mandeans are so late that they have no relevance.

Like everything else from you, is a confused stream of consciousness.
Niente è ingannevole o depravato come Guiseppe.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:11 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:46 pm
John the Baptist is a non-existent entity to Jewish Christians. It was only necessary to include him as a proxy for Paul's baptism by the proto-Orthodoxy, and Theudas, an obvious reason why Jewish Christians would reject John the Baptist.

Jamesians didn't hate YHWH. And Mandeans are so late that they have no relevance.
I have mentioned the Mandeans as counter-example that confutes your stupid implication that:

1) x adores y
2) y adores YHWH
3) therefore x adores YHWH.

In addition, the Mandeans and the Naassenes could be late, but their common hatred against YHWH is very old.

Marcion himself hated YHWH in the precise act of calling him sadistically "Just".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:55 am

In the original myth, Jesus was cursed by the demiurge in virtue of the his same Law:

his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day (for he that is hanged is accursed of God), that thy land be not defiled which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

(Deut. 21:23)

There was not embarrassment at all for the crucifixion of Jesus since there was not embarrassment at all in the view that the demiurge was an evil god.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:21 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:11 am
I have mentioned the Mandeans as counter-example that confutes your stupid implication that:

1) x adores y
2) y adores YHWH
3) therefore x adores YHWH.

In addition, the Mandeans and the Naassenes could be late, but their common hatred against YHWH is very old.

Marcion himself hated YHWH in the precise act of calling him sadistically "Just".
There is no evidence that the Naassenes hated YHWH/demiugos. The same goes for Marcion. They only believed that YHWH was second to a greater power, which is in keeping with JEWISH beliefs at the time--JEWISH beliefs that DID NOT HATE YHWH.

So to use your own syllogism:

Because A believed X
And B believed Y
Doesn't mean that A believed Y

You put too much stock in what Irenaeus, Tertullian, Justin, and Epiphanius said.

The Mandeans are another matter. They seem to be similar to the Zurvanists, who viewed Light and Dark as being necessary dual aspects of Zurvan. The same goes for most gnostics, including Marcion.

Anything else you'd like to put on the chopping block?
Niente è ingannevole o depravato come Guiseppe.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:54 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:21 pm

You put too much stock in what Irenaeus, Tertullian, Justin, and Epiphanius said.
the only fact that a Pagan called Celsus confirms independently from Irenaeus, Tertullian, Justin, and Epiphanius what the same Irenaeus, Tertullian, Justin, and Epiphanius said about Naassenes, Cainites, Ophites, Marcionites, is in my view sufficient alone to debunk all your stupid claims of the kind "Marcion ADORED the Jewish god" et similia.

And please don't say me that Celsus knew about Marcion only from Catholic sources, because by the time of Celsus the Marcionite church was so great that it could still hope to convert the entire Roman Empire, if it was not for the caprices of a guy called Constantin.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:18 am

I never said Marcion and co. "adored the Jewish god" you cretinous, imbecilic, mentally incestuous figlio di puttana. Only that they didn't view him as evil. They didn't worship him, but that does not automatically mean they thought he was evil.That's your own imagination and bastardization of language.

By the time Celsus is writing (ca. Severus) a lot of information regarding Marcion and his school had evolved and was lost. Why should he be considered any more authoritative than the Catholics? (Nothing, btw, he said refutes me). By Celsus's time Marcionism was but one island in a sea of islands, but the Empire was already under the sway of Catholicism thanks to Zephyrinus, Marcia and Commodus. Which is why the Marcionites had to move east at the end of the second century. They lost.

You're a moron who doesn't anything about this. Do us all a favor and contract a flesh eating disease.
Niente è ingannevole o depravato come Guiseppe.

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