Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
lsayre
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by lsayre » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:04 am

1) sunlight illuminates darkness
2) darkness happens when there is no sun in the sky
3) therefore sunlight illuminates when there is no sun in the sky

bzit, we have a loser

x = y
y = YHWH
therefore x = YHWH

That works better

Giuseppe
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:54 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:18 am
I never said Marcion and co. "adored the Jewish god"
To say that YHWH was "only a second god" for Marcion is equivalent to say that Marcion adored YHWH, which is blatantly absurd.

When today the Catholics say that Paul was a second apostle in comparison to Peter, they are still adoring Paul. They aren't despising Paul as a false apostle.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:58 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:54 am
To say that YHWH was "only a second god" for Marcion is equivalent to say that Marcion adored YHWH, which is blatantly absurd.
What are you even saying here? That the Marcionites outright rejected YHWH's existence? Otherwise they would be "adoring" YHWH? Despite that numerous Catholic writers held that Marcion viewed YHWH as second to a higher power?

You're a fucking idiot.

The Marcionites were OT literalists, and interpreted Genesis 1 and 2 as two distinct modes of creation (you know, like Philo did). Elohim, the god of chapter 1, created the heavenly realm and the heavenly Man. YHWH, the god of chapter 2, created the earthen realm and the earthen Adam.

And Marcion did not rejected YHWH's existence or his role as a creator/demiurgos. He only considered him as being lower to another power [Elohim].

This proves two things:

1) That Marcion was ostensibly Jewish in his beliefs, and
2) That you don't know or understand a god damn thing about any of this.
When today the Catholics say that Paul was a second apostle in comparison to Peter, they are still adoring Paul. They aren't despising Paul as a false apostle.
They don't "adore" Peter or Paul you illiterate terroni. They FOLLOW Peter and Paul. The same way Marcion didn't "adore" YHWH or Elohim or Isu Chrestus. He worshiped Elohim as the Father, he followed Chrestus, and he repudiated YHWH as second.

foad.
Niente è ingannevole o depravato come Guiseppe.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:09 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:58 pm
What are you even saying here? That the Marcionites outright rejected YHWH's existence?
they assumed the existence of YHWH but they hated him.

It is called dualism.

The view proposed by you is called ditheism: adoration of two gods, beyond if one was greater than the other.

The Catholics follow before Peter and then Paul: they held them both as apostles. They deny that Simon Magus was a true apostle but they assume the existence of Simon Magus. Your logical fallacy is to believe that hostility against YHWH = denial of the existence of YHWH.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:46 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:09 pm
they assumed the existence of YHWH but they hated him.
First, they didn't assume. They believed. Jews don't assume. They believe. Christians don't assume. They believe.

Second, they, or at least Marcion, didn't hate him. They only viewed him as a god of justice.

Do Jews hate YHWH because they accept passages like Exodus 15:3? or the deluge? or the killing of children for mocking their prophet's bald pate? No, they don't. (That last one is pretty funny, as Paul is depicted as being bald).
It is called dualism.
Which they didn't adhere to because their theological structure was hierarchical, not dualistic. Not only was the Father above YHWH, he was considered the more powerful of the two. Dualism is half-and-half, which the Marcionites outright rejected.
The view proposed by you is called ditheism: adoration of two gods, beyond if one was greater than the other.
They didn't "adore" YHWH, and they didn't worship him either, so how could it be ditheism? They only accepted his role as creator of the earthen realm. They worshiped the Father as the true god. If anything they were henotheistic, acknowledging the existence of multiple gods without actually worshiping all of them. The only problem with that definition is that Marcion was operating within the Jewish traditions of his time, which accepted that there were two powers, YHWH and Metatron. He, following the Alexandrian tradition, said the two powers were Elohim, the Father, and YHWH.
The Catholics follow before Peter and then Paul: they held them both as apostles. They deny that Simon Magus was a true apostle but they assume the existence of Simon Magus. Your logical fallacy is to believe that hostility against YHWH = denial of the existence of YHWH.
What? I never said any such thing Giuseppe, you lying piece of swine excrement.

What YOU said was "
To say that YHWH was "only a second god" for Marcion is equivalent to say that Marcion adored YHWH, which is blatantly absurd.
" which implies that Marcion just denied the existence of YHWH, which he didn't, because Marcion unambigiously accepted YHWH as being a real creative power, only lesser in status to the Father, i.e. A SECOND GOD. To say otherwise is to say that they rejected YHWH's very existence, which they didn't.

So get this through your thick skull:

1) Marcion did not hate YHWH
2) Marcion did not think YHWH was evil
3) Marcion did not worship YHWH
4) Marcion did not rejected or deny YHWH's role in Genesis 2
5) Marcion did accept YHWH as real and as demiurgos
6) Marcion believed there was a higher power above YHWH
7) Marcion worshiped this god as creator par excellence.

So you are wrong. On every point you have ever made and will ever make, because your entire conception of gnosticism, Marcion, and Christianity in general, is soarly wrong and boarders on retardation.

Do everyone here the favour of removing yourself from this forum.
Niente è ingannevole o depravato come Guiseppe.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:04 am

The minimal concession I may give you, is that , EVEN if the demiurge was considered not evil but only without goodness (personally, the difference escapes me, but it is only me), the reason was a partial judaization of Marcion from original gnosticism (where the creator is 100% evil without no ambiguity at all) insofar he was partially rehabilitating the demiurge of previous Gnostics by making him slightly better from a moral POV...

...and NOT, ABSOLUTELY NOT, that Marcion was "following the Alexandrian tradition, with the two powers Elohim, the Father, and YHWH".

Sinope is not Alexandria.

Marcion was a mitigated Gnostic (in my sense), not a Jewish ditheist.

Your ignorance/misunderstanding of the point makes me re-value the vastity of the Atlantic Ocean.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Joseph D. L. » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:53 am

Marcion = Markianos of Alexandria.

The association with Sinope came with Aquila.

Are the two the same? Probably. But Marcion was learned in Alexandria, where he wrote his Gospel.

And he was a Jewish Gnostic of the Noahide persuasion, a gentile who grew up in the Attis-Sabazios cult (i.e. Turkish Judaism), before traveling to Judea to study under r. Akiva (Jewish Gnosticism) and finally in Alexandria, where he composed his first Gospel (the first of probably three such texts he wrote over his lifetime).

"Original gnosticism" did not view the creator as thoroughly evil. That particular idea was late, and disappeared almost immediately. Gnosticism has no set beliefs because it is an entirely abstract idea. Orphism is gnostic. Platonism is gnostic. Osirisism is gnostic. Judaism is gnostic. Zoroastrianism is gnostic. Catholicism is gnostic. Yet they all view the creator as being beneficial.

So where was this evil creator idea? It didn't exist with Marcion. The Valentinians viewed the demiurge as neutral. Most gnostics thought the creator was ignorant, but not wholly malevolent.

It was only present in the Ophites, a sect from the late second century, and who died off faster than you could say hallelujah.

You got nothing.

I have a great respect for Italy, Italian art, culture, history and its people. I only judge you, Giuseppe.
Niente è ingannevole o depravato come Guiseppe.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:16 am

At any case, a more interesting debate is about John the Baptist.

I am strongly embarrassed by this figure, in the Gospels, since references to him are found even in any modern reconstruction of proto-Luke as Mcn. Embarrassed even more than all your speculation about a ditheist Marcion "the Jew" (that, if true, would imply that all my posts have to be deleted as totally vain).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

robert j
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by robert j » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:02 pm

Not addressed to me, but to another participant —-
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:18 am

... you cretinous, imbecilic, mentally incestuous figlio di puttana ...

You're a moron who doesn't anything about this. Do us all a favor and contract a flesh eating disease.
For those that might be interested, I've posted a response in "Forum Business" ---

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5964&p=105340#p105340

I posted that as a follow-up to an OP in that Forum by the author above, who wrote ---
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:54 pm

This is to raise awareness of the issue.
(sorry "Guests", "Forum Business" is only available to registered users)

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Why the Gnostics wanted that the Jews abandoned YHWH

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:27 am

Robert j, a known Giuseppe sycophantic, coming to his master's aid.

Convenient that you have ignored months of back and forth which forms the context that me and Giuseppe have interacted; Giuseppe's own use of insultive language, not just towards me (which I honestly don't care) but to others as well; and, this should not be ignored, Giuseppe using the death of a scholar as an opportunity to decry him.
Niente è ingannevole o depravato come Guiseppe.

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