Proto-Mark == Mark without Passion Story

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7393
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Proto-Mark == Mark without Passion Story

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:45 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:46 pm
Thanks Ben. In the link your comment about Doughty's view is:
I regard this as a very perceptive insight, but one which founders on the very obscurity of the methodology: if this was Mark's intention, why does it take a scholar from the age of postmodernism to figure it out? Such private interpretations are unlikely on their face to be true to the original author's intent, and in this case the notion evidently results in the gospel of Mark being the first extant literary example of a self-causing time loop, a feature from a genre which would not be invented for nearly two millennia.
I don't think so. As I have explained in another thread, the incipit of Marcion could - and was meant (by Heracleon) - be meant as a descent to Sheol, hence also there, Jesus has to go through death before to descend into Sheol, and for the rest of the Gospel he is therefore already risen.
Okay, but — to be fair — your entire line of speculation about Heracleon, Capernaum, and Sheol is utter nonsense to me. Either (A) you are a genius whose mental capacities so far exceed my own that I am left a speechless idiot in your wake or (B) you are a crackpot with a Messiah complex:
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:07 am
I am very luck to discover this! I should be accepted as Messiah in this forum also only for this! :cheers:
There is no in between. I have been unable to salvage or repurpose even a single idea from this line of inquiry of yours except what I had already gleaned from Origen's quotations of Heracleon on their own.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

Giuseppe
Posts: 7215
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Proto-Mark == Mark without Passion Story

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:05 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:45 am
There is no in between.
unfortunately for my messianic claims, I am merely reporting, under a new filter where I mean it necessary to better understand it, the otherwise unexplicable/surprising insistence of a lot of past French mythicists on the identity Capernaum== Sheol and of what that identity means for the correct reconstruction of the Marcion's Gospel.

Hence no, I am not the Messiah. :lol: The Messiah is Georges Ory, the first, to my knowledge, to insist so much on the identity Capernaum==Sheol in Marcion's incipit (followed by other Mythicist authors who, like me, have perfectly realized the extreme importance of that equation). I will be always grateful to him for this.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 7215
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Proto-Mark == Mark without Passion Story

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:27 am

Often I see in this forum that a lot of people believe that Jesus was euhemerized as effect of the destruction of Jerusalem, as theodicy for that destruction.

I disagree.


The simplest reason Jesus was euhemerized is the following:
  • 1) some Christians claim that Jesus was the Christ.
  • 2) the Christ has to appear "in the last times".
  • 3) therefore: a biography of Jesus as the Christ was fixed in recent times.

The invention of the Gospel Jesus was not a great event, it was the mere collateral effect of the insistence that Jesus was the Christ. The simplest reason behind this insistence, is the presence of rival Christians who denied that Jesus was the Christ.

In this scenario, what was the role played by Mark ? The problem with Mark is that it is a Gospel that in the his firt part, assumes a Messianic Secret, while in the his final part, gives a Messianic Rumor. These 2 parts can't come from the same author.

If the first need of the Earliest Euhemerizer was to insist that Jesus IS the Christ, then the final part of Mark, the Passion Story (with the Barabbas episode), was invented before the first part of Mark.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 7215
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Proto-Mark == Mark without Passion Story

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:00 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:27 am
If the first need of the Earliest Euhemerizer was to insist that Jesus IS the Christ, then the final part of Mark, the Passion Story (with the Barabbas episode), was invented before the first part of Mark.
The Passion story of Mark is therefore the Earliest Gospel. His author was the Earliest Euhemerizer of Jesus. After the destruction of Jerusalem, being unable to do the pilgrimage to Jerusalem during the Passover, the "ascent to Jerusalem" of any Jewish-Christian had to be deliberately replaced/confused with the "ascent of Jesus to celestial Jerusalem". Hence the liturgical structure of the Passion Story in Mark.

As the logic goes:
  • 1) Any pious Jewish-Christian has to ascend to Jerusalem during Passover
  • 2) but Jerusalem was destroyed
  • 3) therefore, any pious Jewish-Christian needs to ascend ideally to Jerusalem.
  • 4) the Passion story in Mark worked perfectly as the liturgy required for the point 3.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 7215
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Proto-Mark == Mark without Passion Story

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:14 am

Evidence that I am right above:

Day after day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, yet you did not arrest me. But this has happened so that the scriptures would be fulfilled.”

(Mark 14:49)

This claim of Jesus is false, in our Mark (where Jesus was teaching also on mountains and on lakes and on Wilderness etc).

But that same claim of Jesus becomes ipso facto true, if the original gospel was only the Passion Story of Mark.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 7215
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Proto-Mark == Mark without Passion Story

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:05 am

Other evidence that the earthly ascension allegorizes a celestial ascension:

Mark 14:51-52
A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, 52 he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

Jesus is going beyond the "veil", as per:

Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

(Hebrews 10:19-20)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
arnoldo
Posts: 858
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Latin America

Re: Proto-Mark == Mark without Passion Story

Post by arnoldo » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:23 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:05 am
Other evidence that the earthly ascension allegorizes a celestial ascension:

Mark 14:51-52
A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, 52 he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

Jesus is going beyond the "veil", as per:

Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

(Hebrews 10:19-20)
Stay safe over there in Italy and keep up the good work. :thumbup:

Giuseppe
Posts: 7215
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Proto-Mark == Mark without Passion Story

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:19 pm

arnoldo wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:23 pm
Stay safe over there in Italy and keep up the good work. :thumbup:
thanks. I hope that all this ends rapidly. Never imagined a similar post-apocalyptic scenario, sincerely.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Charles Wilson
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: Proto-Mark == Mark without Passion Story

Post by Charles Wilson » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:38 pm

The Minority of One Report (Again.):

Josephus, War..., 2, 1, 3:

At this Arch[e]laus was aftrighted, and privately sent a tribune, with his cohort of soldiers, upon them, before the disease should spread over the whole multitude, and gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet. At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief; nor did it appear to Archelaus that the multitude could be restrained without bloodshed; so he sent his whole army upon them, the footmen in great multitudes, by the way of the city, and the horsemen by the way of the plain, who, falling upon them on the sudden, as they were offering their sacrifices, destroyed about three thousand of them; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed upon the adjoining mountains: these were followed by Archelaus's heralds, who commanded every one to retire to their own homes, whither they all went, and left the festival.

Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):

[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

Mark 13: 33 - 37 (RSV):

[33] Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
[34] It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
[35] Watch therefore -- for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning --
[36] lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
[37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."

Giuseppe --

Before you go all Deep Space 'n stuff, PLZ look at where this all came from. As a Thesis for how the Original Texts were Transvalued into NT Metaphysics, you need to make the Link to the historical features that may have been Messianic but without a History and tie it to the Transvalued Material after the Destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

There is so much more there and it becomes tied to what happened rather than what might be "Over the Rainbow..."

CW

Giuseppe
Posts: 7215
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Proto-Mark == Mark without Passion Story

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:53 pm


"I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

I call it "Messianic Rumor".

It was invented to eclipse the anti-messianic Secret (=the denial that Jesus is the Christ).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Post Reply