On the goodness of Pilate

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
GakuseiDon
Posts: 930
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Re: On the goodness of Pilate

Post by GakuseiDon » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:49 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:20 am
What Giuseppe is engaging in is hermeneutics. Syncretism is the homogenization of two or more distinct religious/cultural expressions.
Wouldn't hermeneutics be involved in moving towards syncretism, where re-interpreting old texts is the driving force? Seriously, what Giuseppe is doing here is no different to the approach taken by everyone from the early Christian apologist to the modern apologist and mythicist. And I think you'll agree that some of those approaches led to syncretism.

There are two religious/cultural expressions that Giuseppe is merging here, whether he knows it or not: Carrier-style mythicism and gnosticism. What Giuseppe is developing is unique to both of them. How is this not syncretism, according to your definition?
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8025
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: On the goodness of Pilate

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:54 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:20 am
...to using the death of a professor to besmirch him, because said professor had the audacity to criticize Carrier, whom Giuseppe looks to as a loadstar in his sea of stupidity.
Evidently you are so blind that you don't realize the difference between this post and this post.

There is some irony in GDon's comments: he talks about "Carrier's style mythicism" as something that comes after Paul, since the his assumption is simply that Paul didn't place the death of Jesus in outer space.

For me, it is a fact that Paul placed the death of Jesus in outer space.

Just as the Valentinians placed the death of the superior Christ in outer space.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8025
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: On the goodness of Pilate

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:07 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:35 am
The essential goodness of Pilate, an earthly archon who “delivered” Jesus to the Jews, reflects the essential goodness of YHWH (when he “delivered” Jesus per 1 Cor 11:23), the celestial archon. If Pilate was described as essentially evil, then the celestial equivalent, the creator, had to mirror that moral corruption: not just the case, in the intentions of “Mark”.
I have addressed this point on Vridar, gaining this answer by Neil:

My older post you link to is not the “usual” argument offered, as far as I am aware. The point I was making was an exploration of an alternative interpretation of what we find in the way Mark tells the story, an interpretation that tries to avoid any presuppositions from the other gospels – of from gnostic ideas such as yours.

https://vridar.org/2020/01/10/review-pa ... ment-97142
(my bold)

If I understand well, Neil denies a priori to himself "the use of presuppositions from the other gospels - or from other gnostic ideas" when he tries to decipher a Gospel.

I disagree with this approach, since in this way one can interpret the Gospels only according to the presumed assumption of their authors (that YHWH is the supreme god without apparently no kind of objection by the readers of the Gospel).

I don't think that the belief that YHWH is the supreme god has to be assumed pacifically as one of the few points where all the readers of all the early gospels would agree, beyond the differences. At least the readers of proto-John hated totally and entirely the Jewish god. At least they - adorers of a "Jesus Son of Father" who was not YHWH - had to be addressed by the caustic story of Jesus Bar-Abbas.

I wonder why I am attacked in this forum by an user who seems to be the version of Donald Trump in miniature: such Joseph D. L.

I hope that it is all histrionics.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1342
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: On the goodness of Pilate

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:07 pm

GakuseiDon wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:49 am
Wouldn't hermeneutics be involved in moving towards syncretism, where re-interpreting old texts is the driving force? Seriously, what Giuseppe is doing here is no different to the approach taken by everyone from the early Christian apologist to the modern apologist and mythicist. And I think you'll agree that some of those approaches led to syncretism.
So not only do you not understand what syncretism is and how it works, you don't understand what hermeneutics is and how it works.

Syncretism is the natural progression of religious and cultural exchange. Only aspects of said religion and culture that are compatible enough to become syncretized are so. Everything else is ignored.

Hermeneutics is the interpretation of various texts and beliefs within a given religion to fan out some formula and model for understanding it.

See the difference? One is engaged in homogenizing various beliefs, while the other is the study of one sole belief.

An example: Various gnostic Christian schools were the result of syncretism of Judaism and paganism (Naassenes for example), while Catholicism was the result of hermeneutics.
There are two religious/cultural expressions that Giuseppe is merging here, whether he knows it or not: Carrier-style mythicism and gnosticism. What Giuseppe is developing is unique to both of them. How is this not syncretism, according to your definition?
Giuseppe is not merging gnosticism because he has utterly failed to understand what gnosticism even is. (At this point, gnosticism is the exact opposite of what he says it is). What he is doing is combining Carrier, Ory, Couchoud, and various other authors, mixing in his own prejudices, to formulate a model with which to study Christianity. That is hermeneutics. Not syncretism. If he was a practitioner of this quasi-religion of his creation, then it would be syncretism. See???
Image

User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1342
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: On the goodness of Pilate

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:41 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:54 am
Evidently you are so blind that you don't realize the difference between this post and this post.
And? What would have been the relevance for me bringing up Pearse?

I care for neither you or Pearse, and was not a fan of Acharya when she was alive, only defnding her claims when I could find evidence for it. Unlike you, I use my own discretion. And compared to you and Pearse she was more in the right. Just as a tangent:

Mithra [sic] was born on December 25th.

He was considering his syncretism with Helios and Sol, (Antiochus of Athens wrote that Helios died on the 22nd of December and was reborn on the 25th. It's funny because Pearse actualy did a blog on Antiochus and didn't bother to mention this. Funny, that. Ovid also wrote the winter solstice was the beginning of the "new" Sol, and the end of the "old" Sol), and Osiris (As per Plutarch, Horus was born around the winter solstice, and the Songs of Isis and Nypthys has Osiris being reborn as Horus-Sokar on... the winter solstice). There is good reason to say the same of Mithras.

He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.

He created the mysteries, and to do so he would have to travel and teach them. Duh.

He had 12 companions or disciples.

The zodiac was divided into twelve followers during the initiation ceremony, as per Beck.

He performed miracles.

Too vague.

He was buried in a tomb.
After three days he rose again.


The bull the Mithras sacrificed was turned into the moon, and I don't have the time to go over that significance in detail here. So quickly: Osiris=Bull=Moon, Osiris=Moon=3 day new moon phase.

And there's also a second century mosaic that shows Mithras as an initiate emerging from a cave-like structure in a scene reminiscent of the resurrection of Christ.

His resurrection was celebrated every year.

Considering the winter solstice was a time of festivities because it signified the coming spring, then yes.

Mithra was called “the Good Shepherd.”

Attis was, but I've never read the same for Mithras. Though he is portrayed with a shepherd's staff. Again, too vague.

He was considered “the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.”

Mithras/Sol was called Sotar, and the Light, That's about it. If his role as a psychopomp is considered then he could be called "the way", but I wouldn't go that far.

He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.

Lion and a bull really.

His sacred day was Sunday, “the Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ

I wouldn't say hundreds but it was Sunday despite apologist's claims to the contrary.

Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.

The mysteries did partake in a feast on the spring equinox just as the Attis cult did. The fact that Easter is timed by thefull moon is itself conspicuous. (Again, the bull was resurrected as the moon).

His religion had a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper”

The bull that Mithras slayed produced meat, wheat, and wine. Again this is too vague because practically every cult that was syncreized had a "eucharist" like feast in which the god was eaten, or provided the food.

So Pearse, just like you, is totally in the wrong. But don't confuse this with me supporting Acharya. She said many things that she was right to be criticized for. But outright dismissed? No.

So try again Giuseppe. What else do you got?
Image

User avatar
GakuseiDon
Posts: 930
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Re: On the goodness of Pilate

Post by GakuseiDon » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:56 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:46 am
1) The demiurge was a negative deity, one of the seven archons who crucified Jesus in outer space.
Giuseppe, is there a source for the idea that there were seven archons that crucified Christ? It sounds interesting.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8025
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: On the goodness of Pilate

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:36 am

GakuseiDon wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:56 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:46 am
1) The demiurge was a negative deity, one of the seven archons who crucified Jesus in outer space.
Giuseppe, is there a source for the idea that there were seven archons that crucified Christ? It sounds interesting.
I would go to memory: Menander and Satornilos mentioned explicitly 7 archons as killers of Jesus. When Roger Parvus was mythicist (now he is not more) he argued that Paul/Simon Magus had that belief. Even now Parvus thinks that the Simonians, the Satornilians had the demiurge as one of the 7 demonic killers. Probably there is universal agreement about this point.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 6215
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: On the goodness of Pilate

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:01 pm

FWIW, -
"Philo’s account [of Pilate] is located in a letter of King Agrippa I to Emperor Gaius in Legat. 299-305. Agrippa tried to prevent Gaius from setting up a statue of him in the Jerusalem temple by contrasting the emperor with Pilate. Through his account of Pilate, Agrippa urged Gaius to respect Jerusalem in the same way as Tiberius had. The narrative reads, in brief, as follows: Pilate had set up in Jerusalem some golden shields bearing an inscription. According to Philo’s account, the Jews, on the one hand, were afraid that Pilate could start a revolt and destroy the peace in Jerusalem. On the other hand, Pilate realized that the emperor would be furious and that the Jews would impeach him for the way he practiced his governorship. The outcome was that Pilate’s action provoked the Jewish magistrates to write Emperor Tiberius letters of petition. As a result, Tiberius reproached and rebuked Pilate and ordered him to take down the shields and to transfer them to Caesarea by the sea.

"Whether or not Philo’s account on Pilate is historically reliable, it may be useful for bringing light to the trial of Jesus under Roman jurisdiction as recorded in the Gospel of John, namely, the circumstances which led Jesus to crucifixion. It has been assumed that, partly due to pressure from the Jews, Pilate would be setting himself against the emperor if he refused to crucify an alleged king (John 19:12) [so], partly to prevent Jewish uprising and revolt, the Roman prefect crucified Jesus to ensure crowd control. Both aspects seem more comprehensible within the context of Philo’s description of Pilate relative to the emperor and the Jews in Legat. 299-305."

Per Jar Bekken, 'Philo's Relevance for the Study of the New Testament', in Reading Philo: A Handbook to Philo of Alexandria, Terry Seland ed., Eerdmans, 2014; p.435.

andrewcriddle
Posts: 1847
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: On the goodness of Pilate

Post by andrewcriddle » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:34 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:41 pm

He was buried in a tomb.
After three days he rose again.


The bull the Mithras sacrificed was turned into the moon, and I don't have the time to go over that significance in detail here. So quickly: Osiris=Bull=Moon, Osiris=Moon=3 day new moon phase.

And there's also a second century mosaic that shows Mithras as an initiate emerging from a cave-like structure in a scene reminiscent of the resurrection of Christ.

This is almost certainly a depiction of the birth of Mithras

And when those who record the mysteries of Mithras say that he was begotten of a rock, Justin Dialogue with Trypho

If indeed a god, Invictus was rock-born;
Now which came first? Here rock has
Vanquished god: for who created it?
If a god, by theft he could not live; yet
Cattle-thief is the name he goes by.
Terraneous he was born, a monster;
Vulcan's son he's like, old Cacus who
Stole another's beasts, hid them in a cave.
Commodian

According to the popular legend Mithra and Erichthonius were born in a rock or in the ground by the unaided passion of lust. Jerome

The western region being assigned to the element earth it was natural for the Romans to take the latter under their care. For this reason they appear to have honoured Vesta above all as the Persians the rock-born Mithra because of 'the region of fire, and the dwellers in the north the watery element because of the region of water, and the Egyptians Isis, meaning the moon, the guardian of the entire atmosphere. John the Lydian

Andrew Criddle

Edited to Add

See also Cult of Mithras

User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1342
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: On the goodness of Pilate

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:26 pm

Unfortunately there’s ambiguity to the mosaic, where it comes from and what it actually depicts.

The rock/cave birth is likely, but also likely is the rebirth Mithras undertook annually. It’s been speculated that this particular mosaic was located before the entrance to a Mithraeum, and when the neophyte was finally initiated he would step out onto it, symbolizing his rebirth into the mysteries.
Image

Post Reply