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Re: The Meaning of Jesus's Crucifixion

Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:25 pm
by Secret Alias
Yes I should have said Galatians being first is from Acts

Re: The Meaning of Jesus's Crucifixion

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:33 am
by Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:54 pm
In other words, do most of us agree that the crucifixion of Jesus was connected with this historical crucifixion of thousands of Jews around the walls of Jerusalem?

I agree with Ben on the specific question, but it seems to me that you are thinking in a broader sense in the better direction.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:26 pm
It may be possible to argue that the crucifixion is better explained on other grounds (for example, that it proceeds from interpretations of the Hebrew scriptures). Once the direct evidence is off the table, there may be numerous indirect evidences which are left competing with one another.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:06 am
For the purposes of this thread, assume that there is/was no historical Jesus who was crucified and then thought to be the Messiah or the Son of God or whatnot. The notion, then, that the Messiah or the Son of God had to be crucified must have come from some other source than historical misfortune. What might that other source have been? What I am looking for is a list of options, like so:
  • ...
  • The wicked in Wisdom of Solomon 2.20 plot to condemn the righteous man to "a shameful death" (θανάτῳ ἀσχήμονι), and there was no death more shameful in antiquity than the servile supplicium, crucifixion.
  • Plato, in The Republic 2.362a, has Glaucon citing anonymous persons to the effect that the fate of the just man is to be "staked up" (ἀνασχινδυλευθήσεται), thus suggesting crucifixion.
  • Isaiah 50.10; 52.13 (refer also to 53.11) speaks of a suffering "servant" (παῖς) whom Christians commonly identified with Christ, and the servile supplicium, the mode of death most appropriate for slaves or servants, is crucifixion.

One should also see it from a different perspective.

As a fresh student, I had a guest lecture on Japanese criminal law from a Japanese prof. After the lecture, he had to put up with critical questions from some left-wing students about the practice of the death penalty in Japan. As Europeans, we also believe that we have the more enlightened and more humane criminal system than the United States.

I suspect that in the same way many educated Greeks and Jews, but also Romans, held the view, that crucifixion – and especially mass crucifixion – was at least in many cases a barbaric and unacceptable practice of punishment. In some circles it may have discredited the judge more than the convicted criminal. In the first century it may have been the prime example of an often illegitimate exercise of power in an unjust world, in which hope can only come from God. With this in mind it was the "perfect" death.

As an anti-Jewish attitude the "stoning of Jesus" in some texts coult have played a similar role.

Re: The Meaning of Jesus's Crucifixion

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:34 am
by Ben C. Smith
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:33 am
One should also see it from a different perspective.

As a fresh student, I had a guest lecture on Japanese criminal law from a Japanese prof. After the lecture, he had to put up with critical questions from some left-wing students about the practice of the death penalty in Japan. As Europeans, we also believe that we have the more enlightened and more humane criminal system than the United States.

I suspect that in the same way many educated Greeks and Jews, but also Romans, held the view, that crucifixion – and especially mass crucifixion – was at least in many cases a barbaric and unacceptable practice of punishment. In some circles it may have discredited the judge more than the convicted criminal. In the first century it may have been the prime example of an often illegitimate exercise of power in an unjust world, in which hope can only come from God. With this in mind it was the "perfect" death.
Good point! :cheers:

Re: The Meaning of Jesus's Crucifixion

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:48 am
by Secret Alias
Another question about Paul. Why is Paul convinced the Christian message is true if he doesn't know the temple will be destroyed? The answer would be that second and third century Christians believed he had "the Holy Spirit." He knew "by prophesy" that all things would be fulfilled. So did his first adherents. The Holy Spirit was out in the world "participating" in the spread of Christianity. It was like a massive flu virus that infected people on a permanent basis. But if this is removed can any sort of "Christianity" be reasonably explained in the so-called apostolic age?

Re: The Meaning of Jesus's Crucifixion

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:46 pm
by Secret Alias
Let me look at your information again:
Order of epistles according to Tertullian:

Galatians.
1 Corinthians.
2 Corinthians.
Romans.
1 Thessalonians.
2 Thessalonians.
Laodiceans/Ephesians.
Colossians.
Philippians.
Philemon.

Order of cities or provinces visited in Acts:

Galatia (Acts 16.6).
Troas (Acts 16.8).
Philippi (Acts 16.12).
Thessalonica (Acts 17.1).
Athens (Acts 17.15).
Corinth (Acts 18.1).
Ephesus (Acts 18.1).
Rome (Acts 28.14).

Colossae (not mentioned).
Laodicea (not mentioned).

Canonical order & origin points of the epistles:

Romans (unspecified; Marcionite prologue says Corinth).
1 Corinthians (Ephesus, 16.8; Marcionite prologue agrees).
2 Corinthians (Troas, 2.12; 1.8; Marcionite prologue agrees).
Galatians (unspecified; Marcionite prologue says Ephesus).
Ephesians (prison, 3.1; 4.1; 6.20; Marcionite prologue says Rome).
Philippians (prison, 1.13; Marcionite prologue says Rome).
Colossians (prison, 4.18; Marcionite prologue says Ephesus).
1 Thessalonians (Athens, 3.1; Marcionite prologue agrees).
2 Thessalonians (unspecified; Marcionite prologue says Athens).
1 Timothy (Macedonia, 1.3; Marcionite prologue is mute).
2 Timothy (prison in Rome, 1.16-17; Marcionite prologue is mute).
Titus (unspecified; Marcionite prologue is mute).
Philemon (prison, [1.]9; Marcionite prologue says Rome).
So following internal evidence:

Galatia (Acts 16.6) ?
Troas (Acts 16.8) 2 Corinthians
Philippi (Acts 16.12)
Thessalonica (Acts 17.1)
Athens (Acts 17.15). 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians
Corinth (Acts 18.1).
Ephesus (Acts 18.1). 1 Corinthians,
Rome (Acts 28.14). Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians