Re: The Meaning of Jesus's Crucifixion
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:25 pm
Yes I should have said Galatians being first is from Acts
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:26 pmIt may be possible to argue that the crucifixion is better explained on other grounds (for example, that it proceeds from interpretations of the Hebrew scriptures). Once the direct evidence is off the table, there may be numerous indirect evidences which are left competing with one another.
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:06 amFor the purposes of this thread, assume that there is/was no historical Jesus who was crucified and then thought to be the Messiah or the Son of God or whatnot. The notion, then, that the Messiah or the Son of God had to be crucified must have come from some other source than historical misfortune. What might that other source have been? What I am looking for is a list of options, like so:
- The wicked in Wisdom of Solomon 2.20 plot to condemn the righteous man to "a shameful death" (θανάτῳ ἀσχήμονι), and there was no death more shameful in antiquity than the servile supplicium, crucifixion.
- Plato, in The Republic 2.362a, has Glaucon citing anonymous persons to the effect that the fate of the just man is to be "staked up" (ἀνασχινδυλευθήσεται), thus suggesting crucifixion.
- Isaiah 50.10; 52.13 (refer also to 53.11) speaks of a suffering "servant" (παῖς) whom Christians commonly identified with Christ, and the servile supplicium, the mode of death most appropriate for slaves or servants, is crucifixion.
Good point!Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:33 amOne should also see it from a different perspective.
As a fresh student, I had a guest lecture on Japanese criminal law from a Japanese prof. After the lecture, he had to put up with critical questions from some left-wing students about the practice of the death penalty in Japan. As Europeans, we also believe that we have the more enlightened and more humane criminal system than the United States.
I suspect that in the same way many educated Greeks and Jews, but also Romans, held the view, that crucifixion – and especially mass crucifixion – was at least in many cases a barbaric and unacceptable practice of punishment. In some circles it may have discredited the judge more than the convicted criminal. In the first century it may have been the prime example of an often illegitimate exercise of power in an unjust world, in which hope can only come from God. With this in mind it was the "perfect" death.
So following internal evidence:Order of epistles according to Tertullian:
Order of cities or provinces visited in Acts:
Galatia (Acts 16.6).
Troas (Acts 16.8).
Philippi (Acts 16.12).
Thessalonica (Acts 17.1).
Athens (Acts 17.15).
Corinth (Acts 18.1).
Ephesus (Acts 18.1).
Rome (Acts 28.14).
Colossae (not mentioned).
Laodicea (not mentioned).
Canonical order & origin points of the epistles:
Romans (unspecified; Marcionite prologue says Corinth).
1 Corinthians (Ephesus, 16.8; Marcionite prologue agrees).
2 Corinthians (Troas, 2.12; 1.8; Marcionite prologue agrees).
Galatians (unspecified; Marcionite prologue says Ephesus).
Ephesians (prison, 3.1; 4.1; 6.20; Marcionite prologue says Rome).
Philippians (prison, 1.13; Marcionite prologue says Rome).
Colossians (prison, 4.18; Marcionite prologue says Ephesus).
1 Thessalonians (Athens, 3.1; Marcionite prologue agrees).
2 Thessalonians (unspecified; Marcionite prologue says Athens).
1 Timothy (Macedonia, 1.3; Marcionite prologue is mute).
2 Timothy (prison in Rome, 1.16-17; Marcionite prologue is mute).
Titus (unspecified; Marcionite prologue is mute).
Philemon (prison, [1.]9; Marcionite prologue says Rome).