One of the two witnesses of Revelation was called Jesus/Joshua

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Giuseppe
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One of the two witnesses of Revelation was called Jesus/Joshua

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:25 am

The readers know already that there is in red an interpolation:
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

(Revelation 11:8)

But what the same readers don't know is why the stupid Christian interpolator interpolated
where also our Lord was crucified

...just in that precise point.

Because the original text was the following:


And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also they were crucified.

(Revelation 11:8)

Hence we have the lapidation of these 2 witnesses, followed by the crucifixion of their corpses (à la Jewish custom), followed by their resurrection.

We know another thing: the names of these two witnesses.

Zechariah says us who will witness the coming Messiah:

Zorobabel and Joshua/Jesus.

We have in an embryional state a pre-Christian passage where a Jew named Jesus is stoned, crucified and risen.

But the witness of the future Messiah will become himself the Messiah Jesus. The anointer will become the anointed one.

How did the transiction happen?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: One of the two witnesses of Revelation was called Jesus/Joshua

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:38 pm

Were the two thieves (crucified with an arrived Messiah) a parody of the two crucified witnesses of the future Messiah?

Insofar they deride the Messiah, the particular Mark's irony is meant to confirm the reader about the Messianic identity of Jesus: from this POV, they work still as "witnesses" of a Christ who is already arrived.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: One of the two witnesses of Revelation was called Jesus/Joshua

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:44 pm

And note that Revelation is strongly anti-pauline.

The Harlot of Rebelation is Lydia, the rich woman who helped Paul per Acts.

Hence the pauline "Mark" had any interest to parody the two witnesses of Revelation 11:8 by casting them as the two crucified thieves/witnesses of the Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

klewis
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Re: One of the two witnesses of Revelation was called Jesus/Joshua

Post by klewis » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:06 pm

The two witnesses found in Revelation 11 is derived from Zechariah chapters 2 to 4

Image

Jesus/Joshua and Zerubabel.

If you look at what they were doing in Zechariah, they were rebuilding the temple in Zechariah and caring for it in Revelation 11.

This fits the thematic overlay found in Revelation: Jesus is servicing the temple.
  • Caretaker of the Menorah (Revelation chapters 1 to 3).
  • The table of the bread of presence, 2 stacks of six loaves of bread, one loaf for each tribe. In Revelation, it is 4 stacks of six loaves, 12 representing the 12 tribes, the other 12 representing the Apostles (Revelation 4).
  • Jesus preparing the incense (Revelation 5).
  • The burning of the incense (Rev 8:1-5).
  • The cleansing of the tabernacle (Rev 15).
  • The entering of the most holy place, represented by the New Jerusalem as a cube similar to the most holy place (Revelation 21).
The two witnesses in Revelation is also Jesus in his death and resurrection (Rev 11:11). The reason why it is two and not one, has more to do with the source material used to construct Revelation 11 than anything that happen in the Gospel. All of the source texts used to build Revelation 11 had two in it. I can provide them if asked for it.

It should be noted that Revelation 12, depicts the child who is also Jesus because he is taken up in heaven to rule with God (Rev 12:5) that is because of the source text representing Jesus comes from Isaiah 7, 11. The texts used by Christians to depict Jesus back then and today.

In both cases, the death and resurrection of the two prophets and the child taken to heaven. The kingdom of the world became the kingdom of God thanks to the Messiah (Rev. 11:15, 12:10) which is the author's way of tying the two together as one entity.
Last edited by klewis on Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: One of the two witnesses of Revelation was called Jesus/Joshua

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:35 pm

klewis wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:06 pm
The two witnesses found in Revelation 11 is derived from Zechariah chapters 2 to 4

See https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WpWPIk ... sqTHo/view

Jesus/Joshua and Zerubabel.

If you look at what they were doing in Zechariah, they were rebuilding the temple in Zechariah and caring for it in Revelation 11.
I am sure you are aware of this already, but it ought to go on record that the bare idea of two (or three) witnesses in general derives from the Torah:

Deuteronomy 19.15: 15 “A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.”

2 Corinthians 13.1: 1 This is the third time I am coming to you. Every word shall be confirmed by the mouth of two or three witnesses.

And there are elements from Elijah and Moses in the two witnesses of Revelation:

Revelation 11.6: 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

It is probably not insignificant that both Elijah and Moses were thought by some Jews never to have died (Enoch shares this honor, as well); their symbolic appearance in an eschatological context is probably not to be overlooked.
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klewis
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Re: One of the two witnesses of Revelation was called Jesus/Joshua

Post by klewis » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:22 pm

Ben,

I would agree, also, I would like to add how the two witnesses also represented the two spies Joshua sent to Jericho.

Image

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MrMacSon
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Re: One of the two witnesses of Revelation was called Jesus/Joshua

Post by MrMacSon » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:49 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:25 am

Because the original text was the following:

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also they were crucified.

(Revelation 11:8)
On what basis do you say that, Giuseppe?

eta: on the basis of Rev 8:3 (YLT) ??

3 and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth

though, -

4 these are the two olive [trees], and the two lamp-stands that before the God of the earth do stand;

5 and if any one may will to injure them, fire doth proceed out of their mouth, and doth devour their enemies, and if any one may will to injure them, thus it behoveth him to be killed.

6 These have authority to shut the heaven, that it may not rain rain in the days of their prophecy, and authority they have over the waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the land with every plague, as often as they may will.

7 `And when they may finish their testimony, the beast that is coming up out of the abyss shall make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them,

FWIW, YLT has (in English, of course)

.
8 and their dead bodies [are] upon the broad-place of the great city (that is called spiritually Sodom, and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified,)
.


Rev 11:9ff goes on, -

.
9 and they shall behold -- they of the peoples, and tribes, and tongues, and nations -- their dead bodies three days and a half, and their dead bodies they shall not suffer to be put into tombs,

10 and those dwelling upon the land shall rejoice over them, and shall make merry, and gifts they shall send to one another, because these -- the two prophets -- did torment those dwelling upon the land.'

11 And after the three days and a half, a spirit of life from God did enter into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them,

12 and they heard a great voice out of the heaven saying to them, `Come up hither;' and they went up to the heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them;

13 and in that hour came a great earthquake, and the tenth of the city did fall, and killed in the earthquake were names of men -- seven thousands, and the rest became affrighted, and they gave glory to the God of the heaven.
.

eta2 - I presume Rev 11:11 is what Giuseppe is referring to with

Hence we have the lapidation* of these 2 witnesses, followed by the crucifixion of their corpses (à la Jewish custom), followed by their resurrection.

* = stoning

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MrMacSon
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Re: One of the two witnesses of Revelation was called Jesus/Joshua

Post by MrMacSon » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:23 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:25 am

We know another thing: the names of these two witnesses.

Zechariah says us who will witness the coming Messiah:

Zorobabel and Joshua/Jesus.

[We have in an embryional state a pre-Christian passage where a Jew [probably] named [Yeshua/Ἰησοῦς, Iēsoûs/Jesus] is stoned, crucified and risen.
.
The Livius webpage for Zerubbabel refers to the vision of the prophet Zechariah outlined in Zech 3:8, in which an angel is said to speak to the high priest Yeshua/Joshua, -

This is what the Lord almighty says: [...] "Listen, O high-priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch."

That Livius page says "the "branch" note refers to Zerubbabel" (and that note says "A reference to Isaiah 11.1 and Jeremiah 23.5-6").

As does this page: "Zerubbabel is 'the Branch' [in Zech 3:8 and Zech 6:12-13].

That Livius page goes on to say, -
In another vision, Zechariah saw how the high-priest Joshua was crowned and ruled jointly with governor Zerubbabel. God ordered the prophet to say:

"Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two." [note = Zechariah 6.12-13.]


Zech 6:12 is the passage Philo is said to cite in de Conf Ling [62 (or thereabouts)] where instead of the Branch, Anatole - ἀνατολή - is given, and said to mean the East, or Rising [or sunrise].


But, this web-article says, after citing Zech 4:14, -

The speech in Zech 6:12-13] commenc[ing], "Behold the man...", [t]he man Zechariah referred to was neither the royal Zerubbabel nor the priestly Joshua, but that Man of the future who would be more special than either Zerubbabel or Joshua.

The head of Joshua within the golden crown symbolized that priesthood would be incorporated with kingship. The man of the future, the offspring of Zerubbabel, was in line not only to sit upon the royal throne of David, but also to officiate at the mercy seat in the Holiest. He would be both king and high priest.
.

Certainly Zech 4 refers to Zorobabel/Zerubbabel, [but] in this context [Brenton Septuagint Translation]

8 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 9 The hands of Zorobabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands shall finish it: and thou shalt know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to thee. 10 For who has despised the small days? surely they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet of tin in the hand of Zorobabel: these are the seven eyes that look upon all the earth.

11 And I answered, and said to him, What are these two olive-trees, which are on the right and left hand of the candlestick? 12 And I asked the second time, and said to him, What are the two branches of the olive-trees that are by the side of the two golden pipes that pour into and communicate with the golden oil funnels? 13 And he said to me, Knowest thou not what these are? and I said, No, my lord. 14 And he said, These are the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.



Disclaimer: nothing I have said here is designed to sideline or dismiss anything anyone else has said previously. I have posted this as a reflection of some hurried research, and for comment or feedback if anyone would like to provide any, for whatever reason.

Giuseppe
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Re: One of the two witnesses of Revelation was called Jesus/Joshua

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:02 pm

McSon, We can infer that the original reading was "where they were crucified"/"where their corpses were crucified" since only that passage could move the Christian interpolator to ask himself: wait a moment, I know only about Christ crucified in Jerusalem, not about two witnesses crucified. Et voilà, he replaced the original passage with "where also their Lord was crucified".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: One of the two witnesses of Revelation was called Jesus/Joshua

Post by Joseph D. L. » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:04 am


And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

The text in red is the interpolation.

Revelation 11 is about the Kitos revolt. The two witnesses were Julian and Pappus, who were killed in Lod. Their kyrios was Lukuas-Andreas, who was crucified, in all probability, there as well.

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