An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
klewis
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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by klewis »

The problem with the post is that this is a Medieval text stating something that happen 1,200 years earlier. Is it connected with history or was the history produced to cater to a reality of the time it was produced. Since Giuseppe believes that any text that states that Jesus existed as a historical person is BS, and if the text says otherwise then it is historical proof of his conviction. However, the process of deciding what is historical and what is fictional based upon a dogmatic position provides its own level of intellectual delusion or dishonesty. This can be seen in how he compensates for this glaring problem with the timeline of the text. Giuseppe, characterizes the text, dating 1,250 CE, as ancient, giving the illusion that it it was derived in the first couple of centuries after Jesus. He makes no effort whatsoever, to put the text in a historical framework, and from the onset of the first post, he wants you to take his word at face value as to what the text states. He doesn't even entertain, the idea, that the text itself may have produced a theology that was made up. This can be seen in his attempt to limit the posts to his belief system because, after all, he thinks on a much higher level than those who disagree with him.
Giuseppe
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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Giuseppe »

You are perfectly correct in your view of myself. My only apology may be, in this case, that the heretical texts have to be considered "old" only on virtue of them being condemned as "heretical" by the winners.

My second apology is the following:

Sorry for all the my readers, but while all you can be absolutely correct about Paul and the Pillars being pious Jews (never doubted about that, sincerely), the Barabbas episode proves with mathematical certainty that the earliest GOSPEL tradition was connected with a "Jesus the Son of Father" who was not the Jewish Christ.

Hence the anti-demiurgical tradition (showing itself in Cathar texts, for example) is more old than our Gospel tradition.

Hence the correct chronology is the following:

1) Pillars and Paul (adorers of YHWH)

2) Hebrews and Revelation (adorers of YHWH)

3) proto-John (enemies of YHWH)

4) our Gospels (adorers of YHWH)

5) John (adorers of YHWH)

This is banally a particular instance of the minimal mythicism argued by Carrier: the only difference is that I replace the Mark of Richard Carrier with the author of proto-John.

Again, I don't see why I should be compared to Joe Atwill, since I place myself under a SERIOUS mythicist paradigm.

If Klewis is honest, then he should accuse officially Richard Carrier of intellectual dishonesty. Has he the courage of doing so? I doubt.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
klewis
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by klewis »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:22 am You are perfectly correct in your view of myself. My only apology may be, in this case, that the heretical texts have to be considered "old" only on virtue of them being condemned as "heretical" by the winners.

If Klewis is honest, then he should accuse officially Richard Carrier of intellectual dishonesty. Has he the courage of doing so? I doubt.
What does that even mean. There are many things in which Richard Carrier is correct on and there are many things he is wrong on. That is not limited to him, that is limited to everyone living today, everyone who have lived in the past, and everyone who will live in the future.

Listening to some of Richard Carrier's lectures gave me insights into the Gospels and the book of Revelation. So it is not that I ignore him or abandon him. It is that there are other scholars that have a much richer, and more plausible, explanation than he has in many areas.
Giuseppe
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Location: Italy

Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Giuseppe »

klewis wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:04 am It is that there are other scholars that have a much richer, and more plausible, explanation than he has in many areas.
Sorry, but having Carrier limited himself to prove only a precise point (you know what, all we know what), it is a bit of hypocrisy by you to point out the presence and/or presumed richness of knowledge of "other scholars" in opposition to Carrier.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Giuseppe »

I have found another evidence that John the Baptist was an agent of the demiurge, so proving the Cathars were correct:

The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

(Genesis 3:21)

The giving of garments by YHWH to Adam and Eve was interpreted by the Gnostics as the act by which the demiurge buries/imprisons the humanity in the evil matter. Hence, a John the Baptist with "garments of skin" is by definition a creature of the evil demiurge. Despite of his being Elijah redivivus.

But so we can explain the enigmatic verse:

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it

(Matthew 11:12)

"Violent people" are the Archons and YHWH (=one of the seven Archons) , who have power from "the days of John the Baptist", i.e. from the day of the creation of this world, when the humanity was "entrapped" in it. The creation is violence, for the Gnostics.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Giuseppe »


They say that those who believe as we do are the Pharisees and Sadducees who come to the baptism of John. They insult us and call us a generation of vipers, that is, children of the serpent who slept with Eve.

(Bogomil commentary)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44172996?r ... b_contents

Ophites, Naassenes ?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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