An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

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GakuseiDon
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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by GakuseiDon » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:53 am

Nasruddin wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:53 am
I wonder what Jesus was walking towards John to discuss? Probably more annoying questions from the Pharisees. Was John trying to deflect attention away from himself by making people talk about Jesus? Neat trick to turn your interrogator into the suspect.
Personally I always see that passage in the Gospel of John like an SNL sketch, where John sees Jesus and starts pointing and yelling:

1:29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

[And Jesus was like: "WTF??? What the hell is John doing?"]
...
1:35 Again, the next day, John was standing with two of his disciples,
1:36 and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!"
1:37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
1:38 Jesus turned, and saw them following, and said to them, "What are you looking for?"

[And Jesus thought: "John with his big mouth!" And Jesus stopped walking by John after that]
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse

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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Nasruddin » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:11 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:49 am
I don't like to have an interlocutor who assumes dogmatically that not only John, but even Jesus existed. Please don't post in my threads, where I write under the paradigm that Jesus never existed in the real past.
That was not the paradigm you opened this thread with. The OP was that John the Baptist identified Jesus as the Messiah inorder to single him out to the Jews so they could kill him. There is a similar argument about the star that appeared at Jesus' nativity - it was sent to identify where Jesus was born so that he could be traced and killed.

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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Nasruddin » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:33 pm

GakuseiDon wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:53 am
Nasruddin wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:53 am
I wonder what Jesus was walking towards John to discuss? Probably more annoying questions from the Pharisees. Was John trying to deflect attention away from himself by making people talk about Jesus? Neat trick to turn your interrogator into the suspect.
Personally I always see that passage in the Gospel of John like an SNL sketch, where John sees Jesus and starts pointing and yelling:

1:29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

[And Jesus was like: "WTF??? What the hell is John doing?"]
...
1:35 Again, the next day, John was standing with two of his disciples,
1:36 and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!"
1:37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
1:38 Jesus turned, and saw them following, and said to them, "What are you looking for?"

[And Jesus thought: "John with his big mouth!" And Jesus stopped walking by John after that]
In the Gospel, the next day after John identifies Jesus to the disciples, Jesus leaves the company of John the Baptist and goes to Galilee.
John 1:43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee
I guess he got fed up with the attention.

Later Jesus returns to the area where John is, and John's disciples get angry that he is baptizing.
John 3:22-26 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. (This was before John was put in prison.) An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”

Shortly after we are told
John 4:1-3 Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. So he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.

It looks like John and his disciples had notified the authorities about Jesus. John clearly wanted Jesus out of the way.

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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Charles Wilson » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:20 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:38 am
We all know the story:

John 1:29 (RSV):

[29] The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Actually, "We" don't.

Here is what happens when you ignore the Roman fingerprints that are all over this text. "Lamb of God" is Semitic (Pettinato). The Jewish meanings to these Semiticisms become inverted [Edit Note: The Roman Thesis] to make it appear that "John" - That is, Bilgah - is antagonistic to "Jesus" - That is, Immer. We have few enough Stories of the Mishmarot Priesthood. We do, however, have a Story of Bilgah. This Group had its ring separated from the other 23 Mishmarot Groups because of an Offense it made in its Service. It was even considered that Bilgah be removed from the Mishmarot Service (Jewish Encyclopedia, "Bilgah"). Hence, Immer followed Bilgah even though it was RANKED ahead of it.

These are both Priestly Mishmarot Groups (1 Chronicles 24) and they are United in their View that they are REPRESENTING the People to God in their Presentations at the Temple. They are not antagonistic to each other.

GJohn CORRECTS the Synoptic Versions (Both GJohn and the Synoptics derive from the same Ur-Text) but the early Text of John must itself be Redacted and Corrected to bring it in line with the New Religion (See: Teeple, esp.).

PLZ read GJohn 1 (and later GJohn) to see how GJohn rewrote, for example, the Crucifixion Day to see that THIS Story is not antagonistic but UNIFIED in telling another entirely different Story.

No, Giuseppe, "WE" do not know this Story and therein lies the Tale (and understanding) of the NT.

CW

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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:59 pm

Charles Wilson wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:20 pm
GJohn CORRECTS the Synoptic Versions (Both GJohn and the Synoptics derive from the same Ur-Text
ok but the Ur-Text had to be similar to proto-John, since only there Jesus is called Son of Father (and we know that Bar-Abbas is the his synoptical judaizing parody).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Charles Wilson » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:37 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:59 pm
Charles Wilson wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:20 pm
GJohn CORRECTS the Synoptic Versions (Both GJohn and the Synoptics derive from the same Ur-Text
ok but the Ur-Text had to be similar to proto-John, since only there Jesus is called Son of Father (and we know that Bar-Abbas is the his synoptical judaizing parody).
A little Progress here and that is good.

1. The Ur-Text IS similar to Proto-John since it was cut from the same Document as Mark (Raskin). A simplified and perhaps naive view of this is that the Original Document was shredded by Mark, who rearranged the Stories and Intent. The probably fictitious "Papias" gives a statement "for the record" that Mark caused a great amount of problems with his Chiastic Novel. This did not sit well with the Working Group and someone wanted us to know that there was great mischief at work in the "writing of all of the Stories" but not "writing them down in the correct Temporal Order", so to speak.

2. Almost Simultaneously, there was a large amount of fragmented material left. The seed of the New Religion had been planted, however, and the "Ur-John" became Proto-John as the Redactor, Editor and Source (and others) molded the remaining material into a Hegelianized almost finished Project (See: Teeple). The New Religion Paradigm was accepted ("Ordered" is probably more like it...) and the Original Story was rewritten and Transvalued into a Second Mission of "Jesus" in the Proto-John.

3. There was, BTW, material left over as Luke uses several fragments:

Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):

[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

This is from the floor of the Temple at a moment just before the soldiers are ordered in and 3000 are murdered. Passover is cancelled.

Luke and Matthew use some of the left-over material. "Are there only a few who are saved?" asks one. "You must turn as a child..." in order to "Enter through the Narrow Door" is the answer and it points to this Single Story with parts rearranged.

4. This gives us an entrance to understanding Josephus and his major Source, Nicholas of Damascus. There is enough material that points to its Semitic Roots to imply that the Original was also Semitic. However, Nicholas of Damascus was the Political Control Officer for Herod and he was Roman in his Loyalties. Nick could have been the Author of the Original. If not, then the Original had Priestly Origins - Zakkai, perhaps - since some of the Math of the Mishmarot Service is deeply embedded in the NT.

[Note: There are other combinations. It is possible that Nicholas of Damascus authored the Original with Zakkai and the Yavneh Group doing Contract Work, possibly even after Zakkai's death, adding Jannaeus and Mishmarot Math to pad the Transition from Titus worship to the new savior/god. Weitzman's posited Translation Community may have worked on this as well. The End Result of this Construction of the NT gets...complicated.]

Nick may be "Nicodemus", a "Ruler of the Jews" who does not understand a Semitic Idiom, "You must return to Mother" ("You must be Born Again").

5. The entrance of Josephus into the NT leads to our disagreements. Before going Metaphysical we must remove the Physical to see what is left. The Gnostic results must then be analyzed Historically as well before we can jump to Celestial Conclusions.

Thus, we must see if "Bar-Abbas" may be found in a Josephan Historical Setting and this is what we find. Those damn Parthians - Barbarians! - cannot find a suitable King. Enter Thermusa:

Josephus, Antiquities..., 18, 2, 4
Tacitus, Annals, 2

*Sigh*. The things people do for nookie.

You're going to have to write a book to get from this to a full-blown Gnosticism.

6. Nonetheless, a bit of Progress. Giuseppe, I don't believe you are on the right track with your use of "Judaizing" but you may be onto something with Ur-John and Proto-John.

Best to you here,

CW

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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:33 pm

An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to

God had chosen Jesus to die much earlier in scriptures and biblical history. It follows that god would set up all the conditions for Jesus to accomplish his mission of dying. The suicide had to happen for the myth to continue.

The last super and the sop, exchange of favors between Jesus and Judas, is proof of this suicide.

Regards
DL

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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:47 am

In another thread I had written:
Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:17 pm
By removing all the midrash and various embellishments and polemical theological motives, I think and believe that the Earliest Gospel - the earliest invented story that de facto euhemerized the deity Jesus on the earth, and on which all the other authors derived their stories - had this final:

They led Jesus to the high priest,

and the elders and the scribes gathered and,

the morning come, they took counsel and,

having bound him, they brought him to Pilate.

Pilate asked him: “Are you the king of the Jews?”

Jesus asked, “You say so”.

Then Pilate handed Jesus, having him flogged, to be crucified.


I have still this view. Only, I was not able to realize the meaning of the answer of Jesus ("TU DICES"). I have talked about the question more diffusely here.

But now the old Cathar text can allow me to resolve the enigma.

It remembers me the episode of an old movie, Collateral: precisely the Jazz club murder scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IejpzbxKUZE

Basically, as Tom Cruise in the movie, Pilate kills Jesus in the precise moment he answers: “You say so”.

Evidently that information was sufficient, for Pilate, to kill Jesus.

The Cathar source preserves an old tradition where the enemies of Jesus have only to recognize him to kill him.

As agent/allegory of the demiurge, Pilate believes, from the Jesus's answer, that Jesus is the "king of the Jews": eo ipso he kills Jesus on the spot. This is equivalent, in the Cathar source, to John the Baptist (another agent of the demiurge) recognizing Jesus as the "Lamb of God" to move the Jews to kill him (as per Demiurge's desire).

Now, since Jesus is sent by his Unknown Father to be killed by the demiurge, then he has to be recognized by the demiurge as what the demiurge needs him be to kill him.

"Lamb of God", or "king of Jews", are equivalent label for the victim designed by the demiurge.

Hence, by saying "Σὺ λέγεις", Jesus is answering really:

You say that I am the ''king of Jews'' to move the Jews to kill me.



...just as John the Baptist, by hailing Jesus as "Lamb of God", is moving the Jews, by order of the demiurge, to kill Jesus.


In this way all fits: in the first gospel, Pilate was a negative character.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:14 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:47 am

Hence, by saying "Σὺ λέγεις", Jesus is answering really:

You say that I am the ''king of Jews'' to move the Jews to kill me.



...just as John the Baptist, by hailing Jesus as "Lamb of God", is moving the Jews, by order of the demiurge, to kill Jesus.


In this way all fits: in the first gospel, Pilate was a negative character.
This explains probably why in Mark 14:9-10 we have:

“Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate, knowing it was out of envoy that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him

The Pilate's knowledge of the intention of the sinedrites was the reason he calls Jesus "king of Jews": in this way he could move the Jews to kill Jesus, since the Jews had "envoy" for Jesus only as "king of Jews".

That is equivalent to say: only as "Lamb of God".

But then the "Jews" who are meant here are the same Judaizers: they kill the marcionite Christ insofar they take him for the Jewish Christ and the Lamb of Revelation.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: An ancient Cathar text reveals that John the Baptist pointed Jesus as the Lamb of God to move the Jews to kill him

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:23 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:14 am

“Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate, knowing it was out of envoy that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him

The Pilate's knowledge of the intention of the sinedrites was the reason he calls Jesus "king of Jews": in this way he could move the Jews to kill Jesus, since the Jews had "envoy" for Jesus only as "king of Jews".
An analogy may be this image:

Image

if Pilate had not hailed Jesus as "king the Jews", then the Jews would have not killed Jesus.

Hence the instigator Pilate is more evil than the same Jews.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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