Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:35 pm
Guy can you even read? They prove exactly what I said, that Marcion was a Torah literalist, and disprove what you said, that no scholar would agree with me.
You can't use these links as evidence of scholars who think that Marcion observed the Torah out of worship of the god who gave the Torah. You can't use these links as evidence of scholars who think that Marcion adored the god of the Jews as Second God in comparison to the Higher God.
So my point remains all: there are no scholars who preach the existence of a ditheist Marcion.
That wasn't what I was using them for. Keep moving the goalpost because you lost.
I should thank you because now finally you are giving me the final weapon to confute
definitely you.
I start with the first link:
In the next page of that same link, I quote prof
R Joseph Hoffmann:
...Just as the cosmocrator's malice is manifest in the teaching of the law and the prophets, the alien God's benevolence is demonstrated by his saving activity.
(my bold)
Hence you are giving me evidence of a scholar who thinks that Marcion hated the Torah, all the OT prophets as killers and robbers, and he hated YHWH as an evil god as giver of the Torah.
It is too much
evident that prof Hoffmann doesn't using the term "ditheism" to mean that Marcion adored YHWH as Second God or as Second Power in Heaven. It is
evident that prof Hoffmann thinks that Marcion
hated YHWH as a false god. That he
rejected entirely the Torah as a false law of a false god.
Where is the evidence that prof Hoffmann thinks that Marcion betrayes Jewish origins ? I don't see it.
Now I go to the next link I give:
Also here, only a page after, the prof Margaret M. Mitchell, Frances M. Young claim that the real origin of the Marcion's hostility against YHWH is
not a
Jewish origin, but a Platonic hence GENTILE origin:
Without discounting either the stimulus of exegetical problems posed by Jewish scripture or his commitment to the Pauline tradition, it was almost certainly from a philosophical, mainly middle Platonic, vantage point that Marcion apprehended the God of Jewish scripture as a different and inferior being.
(my bold)
Where is the your "Marcion the Jew" here ?
Next:
There is really a total confutation of Joseph D.L., in page 47.
So prof
Sebastian Moll:
Marcion's dualism forms without a doubt the centre of his doctrine.
...
however, an extensive chronological overview of the sources' testimony will show that Marcion's original distinction was in fact between an evil and a good God, whereas the figure of the just God was only introduced by later generations of his followers.
(my bold)
Do you see it?
Marcion's original distinction was in fact between an evil and a good God, whereas the figure of the just God was only introduced by later generations of his followers
That is sufficient to enumerate Joseph D.L. among the "later generations" who have
perverted (== judaized) the original dualism of Marcion between a good God and a bastard YHWH.
At the end:
...in the same page I quote the direct confutation of Joseph D.L. by prof
Guy Williams:
He believed that Paul (correctly) understood the world to be dominated by a lesser or evil God, with a host of subordinate supernatural powers enforcing his rule.
(my bold)
Evil doesn't mean Just. Evil means bastard.
Hence, where is the your
"beneficial and god of healing" called YHWH ?
Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:30 pm
What's funny is that a case can be made that YHWH and Horus was both seen as a demiurgos, as they were both conflated to create Abraxas.
The issue here is that Abraxas wasn't seen as evil or malevolent, but
beneficial and a god of healing.
But Giuseppe would never admit to that.
Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:35 pmI await your abortive attempts to dismiss these scholars as Christian apologists.
Really, all these profs QUOTED BY YOU agree totally with me in considering Marcion not a Jew, but a
Gentile Christian, insofar he rejected totally YHWH as an
evil god.
But without quote them, it is sufficient to read the parable of the two trees in Luke, to realize that the evil tree (YHWH) makes evil fruits (the Torah). There is no redemption for YHWH, and if there was, it is only later judaization of Marcion (see Esnik, where the demiurge converts himself when he realizes the great bullshit done by him by killing Jesus).