Re: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:32 am
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
Martin Klatt, you are a real Genius!!!Martin Klatt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:32 am So this sheep robber(Barabbas) was caught because while weighing the wool killed one of the sheep (to take it with him and make criminal gains).
Which wasn't the reason I was referring to them, Giuseppe. You said:Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:15 am You can't use these links as evidence of scholars who think that Marcion observed the Torah out of worship of the god who gave the Torah. You can't use these links as evidence of scholars who think that Marcion adored the god of the Jews as Second God in comparison to the Higher God.
Yet every scholar I linked to said exactly what I said based on the context of the post, that Marcion was a literalist of the Old Testament, meaning he believed wholeheartedly, at least according to the scholars I tapped, in the history portrayed in it, and that includes YHWH as a creator, and Elohim as being above him.Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:39 pmyou are a total idiot. No scholar would agree with your views. There are more mythicists in academy of the kind I like, than a scholar who would make Marcion a Jew.Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:09 pmWhich he didn't do. He accepted Torah as literal history, and YHWH as the literal creator of the universe. His theology was centered around the God of the celestial Temple, Elohim.
I'm just going to circumvent this whole chain and state right here that the scholars I linked to, unambiguously disprove what you said, thatI should thank you because now finally you are giving me the final weapon to confute definitely you.
And yet here you see scholars calling Marcion a ditheist.So my point remains all: there are no scholars who preach the existence of a ditheist Marcion.
Abraxas was a god of healing as the the amulets with his image on it was used to ward off evil spirits, i.e. diseases.Hence, where is the your "beneficial and god of healing" called YHWH ?Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:30 pm What's funny is that a case can be made that YHWH and Horus was both seen as a demiurgos, as they were both conflated to create Abraxas.
The issue here is that Abraxas wasn't seen as evil or malevolent, but beneficial and a god of healing.
But Giuseppe would never admit to that.
No, they say that Marcion was a literalist and was a ditheist, both of which you said no scholar believed. Yet clearly they do.Really, all these profs QUOTED BY YOU agree totally with me in considering Marcion not a Jew, but a Gentile Christian, insofar he rejected totally YHWH as an evil god.
Convert yourself to a psychiatric ward.But without quote them, it is sufficient to read the parable of the two trees in Luke, to realize that the evil tree (YHWH) makes evil fruits (the Torah). There is no redemption for YHWH, and if there was, it is only later judaization of Marcion (see Esnik, where the demiurge converts himself when he realizes the great bullshit done by him by killing Jesus).
well, the links given by you are absolutely not evidence of the part in yellow above. Marcion was a gentile, ignorant of Eloihm just as I am (a Gentile) totally ignorant about this Elohim. But as a Gentile I am totally able to realize from the OT that YHWH is an evil troll just as you, Joseph D.L.Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:39 pmHe accepted Torah as literal history, and YHWH as the literal creator of the universe. His theology was centered around the God of the celestial Temple, Elohim.
all things I agree with. Where I strongly disagree, and where I lose you (but not the your scholars who are my allies here), is in the following falsity by you:Yet every scholar I linked to said exactly what I said based on the context of the post, that Marcion was a literalist of the Old Testament, meaning he believed wholeheartedly, at least according to the scholars I tapped, in the history portrayed in it,
who cazzo is Elohim? A Gentile as Marcion could well infer that YHWH is an evil creator from the bible, but no Gentile from Sinope could realize that in the OT there is a god above the god. The only god above god I see in the Bible, is the Serpent from Genesis : a revealer just as Prometheus. He is the god adored by the Ophites, not an enigmatic bullshit called Elohim.and that includes YHWH as a creator, and Elohim as being above him
idiot, I have made it clear that these acholars use the term ditheism in a dualistic sense, meaning complete rivalry between the two gods. Rivalry, hostility, not secret alliance beteeen Two Powers in heaven et similia bullshit.I'm just going to circumvent this whole chain and state right here that the scholars I linked to, unambiguously disprove what you said, that
And yet here you see scholars calling Marcion a ditheist.So my point remains all: there are no scholars who preach the existence of a ditheist Marcion.
the exact thing I think about you, after this strawman argument by you.You are nothing but an imbecilic troll.
it doesn't matter how you want to call it. My point, and the point of any scholar in the world, is that Marcion was not a Jew insofar he HATED YHWH.Hell, I don't even think Marcion was a ditheist, because his theological system was based on a hierarchy, one god above another, and not a dualism or ditheism structure.
Horus may be even my brother, he is not a Jewish thing.What's funny is that a case can be made that YHWH and Horus was both seen as a demiurgos, as they were both conflated to create Abraxas.
any lion-headed portrait of the demiurge makes him an evil beast. Period.The issue here is that Abraxas wasn't seen as evil or malevolent, but beneficial and a god of healing.
they use "ditheist" in the sense used by me, as synonim of "dualist". You are co-opting their support against their true intentions. At any case, you don't address the quote of my post above of exactly these scholars. I call this a "intellectual dishonesty". Isn't it?No, they say that Marcion was a literalist and was a ditheist, both of which you said no scholar believed. Yet clearly they do.
Are you saying that Marcion had zero knowledge of the Old Testament?Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:24 pm well, the links given by you are absolutely not evidence of the part in yellow above. Marcion was a gentile, ignorant of Eloihm just as I am (a Gentile) totally ignorant about this Elohim. But as a Gentile I am totally able to realize from the OT that YHWH is an evil troll just as you, Joseph D.L.
So Philo of Alexandria had no earthly idea what he was talking about when he spoke of Genesis 1 and 2 being indicative of two powers? And Rabbinical Jews who mused of god higher than YHWH were just morons?all things I agree with. Where I strongly disagree, and where I lose you (but not the your scholars who are my allies here), is in the following falsity by you:
who cazzo is Elohim? A Gentile as Marcion could well infer that YHWH is an evil creator from the bible, but no Gentile from Sinope could realize that in the OT there is a god above the god. The only god above god I see in the Bible, is the Serpent from Genesis : a revealer just as Prometheus. He is the god adored by the Ophites, not an enigmatic bullshit called Elohim.and that includes YHWH as a creator, and Elohim as being above him
Which wasn't my intention you illiterate dumbass. You said no scholar believed Marcion was a ditheist. You were wrong. And I'll go ahead an address this gem right now:You can't use these scholars as evidence of a Marcion who believed that the demiurge was a Just god as opposed to an Evil god.
No, they say that Marcion was a literalist and was a ditheist, both of which you said no scholar believed. Yet clearly they do.
[/quote]they use "ditheist" in the sense used by me, as synonim of "dualist". You are co-opting their support against their true intentions. At any case, you don't address the quote of my post above of exactly these scholars. I call this a "intellectual dishonesty". Isn't it?
So you are wrong.
Marcion didn't hate YHWH. The earliest evidence of Marcion states that his only heresy was that he positioned YHWH as second to a higher god, which was a Jewish idea. There is no evidence that Marcion hated YHWH, and even later evidence is very suspect. Did Irenaeus ever teach that Marcion hated the god of the Jews? Even to these people, heresy is on par to hatred of the truth, so everything they so should be criticized as biased.
- A true Jew (of any time and place) doesn't hate YHWH.
- Marcion hated YHWH.
- Therefore Marcion was not a Jew.
It's simple because it's not true.It is so simple... but not for you.
And how are your ideas accepted by the scholarly comunity? Oh, that's right, you're a no one whom even Carrier thinks is a raging retard.it doesn't matter how you want to call it. My point, and the point of any scholar in the world, is that Marcion was not a Jew insofar he HATED YHWH.
Even though Jews conflated Horus with YHWH under the name IAO...Horus may be even my brother, he is not a Jewish thing.What's funny is that a case can be made that YHWH and Horus was both seen as a demiurgos, as they were both conflated to create Abraxas.
First, no it doesn't. The lion-headed demiugos in Mithraism wasn't evil. He was neutral. Second, the source you referred to, if you actually took the time to read his article, states that not all representations signified a gnostic idea.any lion-headed portrait of the demiurge makes him an evil beast. Period.The issue here is that Abraxas wasn't seen as evil or malevolent, but beneficial and a god of healing.
Marcion was a gentile, ignorant of Eloihm just as I am (a Gentile) totally ignorant about this Elohim
no,I am saying that he had the knokledge of it as only a Gnostic Gentile could have. It is not the same thing as zero knowledge.Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:02 am Are you saying that Marcion had zero knowledge of the Old Testament?
I have proved, quoting these same scholars, that they support me, not your judaization of Marcion.Marcion was versed in the Old Testament, AS PROVEN BY THE VERY SCHOLARS
more somply, you can not call them marcionites, not even precursors of Marcion. Period.So Philo of Alexandria had no earthly idea what he was talking about when he spoke of Genesis 1 and 2 being indicative of two powers? And Rabbinical Jews who mused of god higher than YHWH were just morons?
where you confirm yourself as the troll you are.You're just an anti-Semitic piece of shit.
because more in general the Gnostics wanted to co-opt the Jewish myth of Jesus for themselves.Marcion's theology used Judaism as a base. If it didn't, why the fuck would he use Paul and a Gospel that was and made positive use of it?
tsk. No scholar in the world argues so. A true scholar argues, at contrary, that the Demiurge Just is a later developpment than the Demiurge Evil. This is not expected at all if marcionism comes from Two Powers Theology. This is absolutely more expected if Marcionism comes from gentile gnosticism.Oh, because Marcion was Jewish at the least, and a Noahide at the most.
precisely. This is confirmed again and again by their emphasis on the demiurge being an evil god. Evil with the good people.So these scholars, who have dedicated their entire careers to the study of religious ideas, and who would know the difference between dualism and ditheism, and just for whatever reason use ditheism as a synonym for a word that it is opposite in meaning of....
no scholar agrees with you here. Sebastian Moll especially among them.Marcion didn't hate YHWH. The earliest evidence of Marcion states that his only heresy was that he positioned YHWH as second to a higher god, which was a Jewish idea. There is no evidence that Marcion hated YHWH, and even later evidence is very suspect. Did Irenaeus ever teach that Marcion hated the god of the Jews? Even to these people, heresy is on par to hatred of the truth, so everything they so should be criticized as biased.
Occam prohibits, sorry.It's simple because it's not true.
the consensus is already with me, here. As your same scholars prove.And how are your ideas accepted by the scholarly comunity?
the hatred for YHWH to a such high degree as shown by Marcion cannot be absolutely an evolution of Two Powers on heaven. Hence I address fully you here.I didn't bring up these scholars to address Marcion's supposed hatred for YHWH. You are incapable of understanding context.
At any case, it is a real impossibility. Hoffman is judaizing Marcion against the real Marcion.Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:17 am Let's take a moment to appreciate Giuseppe's complete failure and ignorance on a subject he knows nothing about...
Marcion was a gentile, ignorant of Eloihm just as I am (a Gentile) totally ignorant about this ElohimMarcion may have taken up distinctions based upon the major names of God in the lxx: kyrios and theos (“Lord,” that is, “yahweh”) and “God” (Elohim).
~ Richard Pervo
https://books.google.com/books?id=9-PYA ... im&f=false