Iraneus and Polycarp

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Iraneus and Polycarp

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:58 am The dove may well link back to Jesus' baptism, agreed. But it also plays into another motif
I didn't see the need to wrestle Peregrinus into this discussion [I'm honestly tired of talking about him myself. And I was writing a book about him! lol]

But consider the Phoenix that would die and rise aloft. The Phoenix had an especial affinity with the sun, as it was said to have made its nest in Heliopolis, the city of the sun.

This brings in a closer relationship with the Phoenix and the Bennu bird, which, despite the supposed "problematic interpretations", was associated with death and rebirth. And add it the Egyptian's belief in ba, and the picture becomes clearer.

The Ba leaves his tomb:

Image
But the dove is not textually secure:

I admit, I am not (yet) sure which of these options to espouse, although it has to be noticed how very disposable the dove is in its context.

At a certain point it doesn't matter what is and isn't authentic, but what is believed to be true.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Iraneus and Polycarp

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:00 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:58 am The dove may well link back to Jesus' baptism, agreed. But it also plays into another motif
I didn't see the need to wrestle Peregrinus into this discussion [I'm honestly tired of talking about him myself. And I was writing a book about him! lol]

But consider the Phoenix that would die and rise aloft. The Phoenix had an especial affinity with the sun, as it was said to have made its nest in Heliopolis, the city of the sun.

This brings in a closer relationship with the Phoenix and the Bennu bird, which, despite the supposed "problematic interpretations", was associated with death and rebirth. And add it the Egyptian's belief in ba, and the picture becomes clearer.

The Ba leaves his tomb:

Image
Okay, this is fine for a bird's eye view, so to speak; but the connection with the legend of Augustus' death seems certain, regardless.
But the dove is not textually secure:

I admit, I am not (yet) sure which of these options to espouse, although it has to be noticed how very disposable the dove is in its context.
At a certain point it doesn't matter what is and isn't authentic, but what is believed to be true.
This is logically true only after the belief has arisen. It may not have arisen as early as the Martyrdom of Polycarp. That is all I am saying.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Iraneus and Polycarp

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:40 am Okay, this is fine for a bird's eye view, so to speak; but the connection with the legend of Augustus' death seems certain, regardless.
I wasn't contesting that, only adding that there was already an association with legendary birds, fire, and resurrection prior.
This is logically true only after the belief has arisen. It may not have arisen as early as the Martyrdom of Polycarp. That is all I am saying.
Which I understand, but we have no idea what was before the belief. The problem is thinking about these texts as if there is some objective metric to interpret them. If we're arguing scientifically, then we could reject essentially everything in Christianity and Judaism as fraudulent. But we can't argue scientifically because we're not examining a microbe under a microscope. Beliefs cannot be studied the same way, if you want to understand them.

So you see it doesn't matter if the inclusion of a dove was late. What matters is that it was accepted.
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