Iraneus and Polycarp
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:47 am
Does Iraneus say that he heard from Polycarp that he knew the direct apostles of Jesus or does Iraneus say that he heard from the churches that Polycarp knew the apostles of Jesus?
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
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This is what we have from Irenaeus about Polycarp:
The Martyrdom of Polycarp may be important in this regard. The dove that emerges from him calls back to the dove that descends upon Christ at the beginning of his ministry. This fulfills the double role of legitimizing his Apostolic authority, and of ceasing the line of Apostolic authority to ensure no one else can lay claim to it.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:34 pm The image that is portrayed from the writings of these Church Fathers - and again we have to remember that these are just words - is that it is taken for granted that 'the Holy Spirit' is a living being which moved or transmigrated from body to body. The individual martyrs died (martyrs used in the broadest sense of the term - i.e. 'witnesses'). They spoke for the Holy Spirit which was in them. The Holy Spirit then left their body when the individual 'witness' died and transmigrated to another body.
The reason this is important is that Irenaeus theoretically could speak not only for Polycarp but as Polycarp. They were the same person allegedly. That's how one person spoke for another, corrected his writings.
The dove may well link back to Jesus' baptism, agreed. But it also plays into another motif:Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:23 amThe Martyrdom of Polycarp may be important in this regard. The dove that emerges from him calls back to the dove that descends upon Christ at the beginning of his ministry. This fulfills the double role of legitimizing his Apostolic authority, and of ceasing the line of Apostolic authority to ensure no one else can lay claim to it.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:34 pm The image that is portrayed from the writings of these Church Fathers - and again we have to remember that these are just words - is that it is taken for granted that 'the Holy Spirit' is a living being which moved or transmigrated from body to body. The individual martyrs died (martyrs used in the broadest sense of the term - i.e. 'witnesses'). They spoke for the Holy Spirit which was in them. The Holy Spirit then left their body when the individual 'witness' died and transmigrated to another body.
The reason this is important is that Irenaeus theoretically could speak not only for Polycarp but as Polycarp. They were the same person allegedly. That's how one person spoke for another, corrected his writings.
That Irenaeus is said to have authored the Martyrdom of Polycarp can also mean that he was granting himself this very Apostolic authority.
But the dove is not textually secure:Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:10 amAgreed. Lucian's tale of the vulture in The Passing of Peregrinus comes off as a spoof of this motif:andrewcriddle wrote:The Ultimate source of the motif of a bird ascending at the funeral pyre is the Funeral of Augustus
39 In that business I assure you, my friend, I had no end of trouble, telling the story to all while they asked questions and sought exact information. Whenever I noticed a man of taste, I would tell him the facts without embellishment, as I have to you, but for the benefit of the dullards, agog to listen, I would thicken the plot a bit on my own account, saying that when the pyre was kindled and Proteus flung himself bodily in, a great earthquake first took place, accompanied by a bellowing of the ground, and then a vulture, flying up out of the midst of the flames, went off to Heaven, saying, in human speech, with a loud voice: “I am through with the earth; to Olympus I fare.” They were wonder-struck and blessed themselves with a shudder, and asked me whether the vulture sped eastwards or westwards; I made them whatever reply occurred to me.
40 On my return to the festival, I came upon a grey-haired man whose face, I assure you, inspired confidence in addition to his beard and his general air of consequence, telling all about Proteus, and how, since his cremation, he had beheld him in white raiment a little while ago, and had just now left him walking about cheerfully in the Portico of the Seven Voices, wearing a garland of wild olive. Then on top of it all, he put the vulture, swearing that he himself had seen it flying up out of the pyre, when I myself had just previously let it fly to ridicule fools and dullards.
Lucian elsewhere, in Icaromenippus, pairs off an eagle and a vulture. The character mounts one wing of each on his shoulders in order to fly, specifically noting the connection of the former to Zeus and the unfitness of the latter by comparison:
Well, I caught a fine eagle, and also a particularly powerful vulture, and cut off their wings above the shoulder-joint.
....
I caught the birds, and effectually amputated the eagle's right, and the vulture's left wing. These I fastened together, attached them to my shoulders with broad thick straps, and provided grips for my hands near the end of the quill-feathers.
....
When I approached the Moon, long after parting from the clouds, I was conscious of fatigue, especially in the left or vulture's wing.
....
Three days' flight through the stars, with the Sun on my right hand, brought me close to Heaven; and my first idea was to go straight in as I was; I should easily pass unobserved in virtue of my half-eagleship; for of course the eagle was Zeus's familiar; on second thoughts, though, my vulture wing would very soon betray me.
I admit, I am not (yet) sure which of these options to espouse, although it has to be noticed how very disposable the dove is in its context.However, any original connection of either of these avian motifs (Augustan or Lucianic) to the death of Polycarp is dodgy: our extant copies of the Martyrdom of Polycarp 16.1-2 do describe a dove flying off:
1 At length, when those wicked men perceived that his body could not be consumed by the fire, they commanded an executioner to go near and pierce him through with a dagger. And on his doing this, there came forth a dove, and a great quantity of blood, so that the fire was extinguished; and all the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, 2 of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.
1 Πέρας γοῦν ἰδόντες οἰ ἄνομοι μὴ δυνάμενον αὐτοῦ τὸ σῶμα ὑπὸ τοῦ πυρὸς δαπανηθῆναι ἐκέλευσαν προσελθόντα αὐτῷ κομφέκτορα παραβῦσαι ξιφίδιον. καὶ τοῦτο ποιήσαντος, ἐξῆλθεν περιστερὰ καὶ πλῆθος αἵματος, ὥστε κατασβέσαι τὸ πῦρ καὶ θαυμάσαι πάντα τὸν ὄχλον, εἰ τοσαύτη τις διαφορὰ μεταξὺ τῶν τε ἀπίστων καὶ τῶν ἐκλεκτῶν· 2 ὧν εἷς καὶ οὗτος γεγόνει ὁ θαυμασιώτατος μάρτυς Πολύκαρπος, ἐν τοῖς καθ’ ἡμᾶς χρόνοις διδάσκαλος ἀποστολιδὸς καὶ προφητικὸς γενόμενος, ἐπίσκοπος ἀποστολικὸς καὶ προφητικὸς γενόμενος, ἐπίσκοπος τῆς ἐν Σμύνῃ καθολικῆς ἐκκλησίας. πᾶν γὰρ ῥήμα, ὃ ἀφῆκεν ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐτελειώθη καὶ τελειωθήσεται.
But in History of the Church 4.15.39, while copying directly from the Martyrdom, Eusebius famously fails to mention any dove:
39 And when he had done this there came forth a quantity of blood so that it extinguished the fire; and the whole crowd marveled that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this man also was one, the most wonderful teacher in our times, apostolic and prophetic, who was bishop of the catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came from his mouth was accomplished and will be accomplished.
39 καὶ τοῦτο ποιήσαντος, ἐξῆλθεν πλῆθος αἵματος, ὥστε κατασβέσαι τὸ πῦρ καὶ θαυμάσαι πάντα τὸν ὄχλον εἰ τοσαύτη τις διαφορὰ μεταξὺ τῶν τε ἀπίστων καὶ τῶν ἐκλεκτῶν· ὧν εἷς καὶ οὗτος γέγονεν ὁ θαυμασιώτατος ἐν τοῖς καθ' ἡμᾶς χρόνοις διδάσκαλος ἀποστολικὸς καὶ προφητικὸς γενόμενος ἐπίσκοπος τῆς ἐν Σμύρνῃ καθολικῆς ἐκκλησίας· πᾶν γὰρ ῥῆμα ὃ ἀφῆκεν ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐτελειώθη καὶ τελειωθήσεται.
Rufinus has: "quo facto tam largus profusus est sanguis ut restingueret rogum."
Either Eusebius has for some reason omitted the dove or the dove is a pious addition from a later pen.